More relocation chat/brawling

[sydmariner]

Full article with some more quotes from MC




Central Coast Mariners are edging closer towards a move into the northern suburbs after owner Mike Charlesworth confirmed he is working to create a W-League team based at North Sydney Oval as well as forming a youth academy in the region.

As revealed by Fairfax Media on November 26, the Mariners are looking to move more games to North Sydney Oval - for financial incentives and to engage more supporters - and that could begin with a women's football team.

The Mariners are one of the few A-League clubs that do not have a women's team in the national competition. That could change, with Charlesworth and local football associations in the northern Sydney region expressing a desire to co-host a W-League team.

It is understood discussions have taken place in the past fortnight between the Mariners and football clubs in the northern suburbs regarding the joint venture.

''It would entail the Mariners having a W-League team in north Sydney, I can't give any more information than that but it's certainly on the agenda,'' Charlesworth said.

The Mariners owner has also had discussions with local clubs and associations about establishing a northern suburbs-based youth academy linked with the club as part of the Mariners' push into Sydney's north.

''From our point of view, if we're going to expand into that region, we'll have to do something in a tangible way,'' he said.

''Coming for one game a season is fine for that night but to have a physical presence and develop the supporter base that we want … then we have to do something in the football community, so that means work the market. We would like to see a Mariners academy in northern Sydney, we would like to see a W-League team.''

The Mariners will play a one-off match at North Sydney Oval at 7.30pm on Thursday when they host Wellington Phoenix. It is understood a big attendance and community response could lead to more games at the venue.

More than 5000 tickets had been sold by Wednesday afternoon and the venue's owner, North Sydney Council, expects an attendance of 10,000 due to an anticipated large number of walk-ups. A crowd figure of 10,000 will deliver a profitable gate receipt for the club and could tempt Charlesworth to bring more games to the venue.

The Mariners pay $7500 in stadium rental fees at their home ground, Bluetongue Stadium - understood to the be the lowest in the A-League - and Charlesworth confirmed they were looking for a reduced tenancy rate when Gosford City Council assumes management on February 1.

''We want to cut a better deal with Gosford council,'' Charlesworth said. ''Ten thousand [supporters at North Sydney Oval] is our target, and that will be a success, but I think there are other factors: the ongoing stadium deal that we'll get with the council, and the ongoing stadium deal that we may potentially get with Gosford council.''

The Mariners' squad depth will be tested during Thursday night's match with just 16 players likely to be eligible. Phil Moss will have few selection decisions to make for his extended squad due to suspensions and injuries.

Youth players Brent Griffiths and Michael Neill received one-match bans due to red cards in the National Youth League last week while defender Zach Anderson and youngster Tom Slater are both likely absences due to back injuries. Kiwi international Michael McGlinchey is struggling to overcome fatigue, and is likely to be rested for Thursday's game in order to be fully fit for Monday's match away to Western Sydney Wanderers.

Despite the setbacks, Moss is confident of getting a result with the players at his disposal.

''I wouldn't say that we're down to bare bones because we still have some great players who are available,'' Moss said.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...st-mariners-20131218-2zlgn.html#ixzz2nrj52OTe

 

[bikinigirl]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/footbal...orth-sydney-oval/story-e6frf4gl-1226786185019

Some interesting points.

. indeed

With a population of 320,000, the Central Coast is a small market for the club to target, yet it's worth questioning the extent to which the Mariners are a little bit taken for granted.

. yes, to a degree ... but it seems to many the current owner is taking the committed supporters for granted to an even greater extent - which is turning people away:

So far this season the home attendances - for the champions remember - have averaged just over 10,000, a figure lifted substantially by having Western Sydney visit in Round One and despite one of the best-regarded community programs in the A-League.

. this is the sort of reporting that i wish would see them asking supporters groups for comment ... by all means refer to my comment above - but especially for such a small pool, certain factors can have a big impact

. to over-simplify things we have had two poor crowds:

• the melbourne game was affected by bad weather, week-day and the fact that it was our first ever game shown on FTA
• the sydney game was affected by all the shit being discussed in this thread (more than the owner will ever admit) as well as many other potential reasons such as fewer travelling fans (no ADP & knowing they would lose ), christmas obligations (we are a family club afterall ), 3 & 6 game members holding out for a better opportunity, etc, etc.

. i think that would change the context of the article somewhat and provide a fair indication of what is going on ... who knows it may actually help to improve the level of support

 

[midfielder]

BG

Nice summary ... the idea of another academy like Western NSW, using Gladsville Spirit and other Associations in the NS region ... yep I am happy with that ... having a W-League team playing in the area ... I would go to a smaller oval than NSO and their are a few ...

Connecting to the local teams and women's association is clever and has the potential to bring fans... and is something we are good at .... and will piss off the Flying Circus and Drive Bys...

Just maybe MC has been throwing out ideas and will pick up the best ... I do like the NS region youth academy and W-League as the women's association is huge [my wife plays in it] and they have big big player numbers...

 

[scottmac]

In regards to the academy, I think it's a great idea. Having just moved to Canberra I've met a few people who have young kids playing soccer down here & in the surrounding areas. Kids from the country areas in land & to the north see playing for the Western mariners as that first step.
Would be good for that to be the case for the Northern suburbs.

 

[nebakke]

I like the idea on the face of it, but after all the junk having been let off in the last couple of weeks, I can't help but feel a little apprehensive, like "is this the thin end of the wedge?".
I think there should be a W-league team and I like the concept of the academy here, I just hope it doesn't get used as a base for moving more and more games down here... I actually don't think the team is being taken for granted, as I mentioned in a previous comment, I think the supporter base has shown this year, that we're willing to support the team, it's just not always something that can be handled timewise... that's part and parcel of being a family club - Once again, as you've already pointed out BG - A good start, woudl be for the club to recognise that it has almost doubled the membership numbers from last year, rather than going on about how we're just not doing enough for them.

GOD How I hate this crowd discussion....

If I could get rid of the thin-end-of-the-wedge feeling though, I'd probably even consider supporting moving more games down, provided it was the Wellington/Perth-type-games... The ones where the club's not expecting much more than core support anyway... Assuming NSO is cheaper for them...

 

[scottmac]

I'd give my right testicle for another fan forum right now.

 

[bikinigirl]

The Mariners pay $7500 in stadium rental fees at their home ground, Bluetongue Stadium - understood to the be the lowest in the A-League - and Charlesworth confirmed they were looking for a reduced tenancy rate when Gosford City Council assumes management on February 1.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...st-mariners-20131218-2zlgn.html#ixzz2ns1l2OXK

. i mentioned this earlier , but $7,500! and he wants a reduced rate? to what?

. if that is the case let's look at some numbers:

• $7,500 x 13 home games = $97,500 in rental fees ... a year!
• lets assume 'other' costs are consistent regardless of the venue ... so excluding security, road closures, etc
• also exclude finals games (apparently that is the ffa's cost) and acl (for the sake of the argument)
• a 50% reduction will save $48,750 ... a year!
• free rental will save $97,500 ... a year!
• ok, so i couldn't afford to pick up the tab ... but seriously!

. what does less than $100k a year get you:

• a groundsman, lawn tractor and some petrol?
• the reason for ccm not putting in a tender for management rights seems obvious ... they couldn't manage the stadium for less than $100k pa!
• yet he still wants a better deal!

. what would it take to gain or lose $100k pa through other streams:

• 279 platinum members @ $350
• 375 gold members @ $260
• 500 blue members @ $195
• 4,875 walk up supporters @ say $20 (you could say he has already lost 5,000 people in two games ... not the whole season!)
• if he loses more than say 400 members in the next year ... and gets the rent for free ... he would still be shooting himself in the foot if there was any feet left

. and the money brought to the coast through the quoted 42,000 people is largely an irrelevance to gosford council. if a couple (or a family of 37) wsw supporters attend a match and head for a stuff 'til ya chuck feed at the leagues club beforehand ... how much money does the council see before the profits are taken to a holding company off the coast?

. anybody get the feeling i think this is all illogical?

 

[adz]

Did someone miss a zero off that number and it's really $75,000 per match? Whinging about $7,500 is a joke. We could pass a hat round and come up with that every week.

 

[dibo]

. indeed



. yes, to a degree ... but it seems to many the current owner is taking the committed supporters for granted to an even greater extent - which is turning people away:



. this is the sort of reporting that i wish would see them asking supporters groups for comment ... by all means refer to my comment above - but especially for such a small pool, certain factors can have a big impact

. to over-simplify things we have had two poor crowds:

• the melbourne game was affected by bad weather, week-day and the fact that it was our first ever game shown on FTA
• the sydney game was affected by all the shit being discussed in this thread (more than the owner will ever admit) as well as many other potential reasons such as fewer travelling fans (no ADP & knowing they would lose ), christmas obligations (we are a family club afterall ), 3 & 6 game members holding out for a better opportunity, etc, etc.

. i think that would change the context of the article somewhat and provide a fair indication of what is going on ... who knows it may actually help to improve the level of support

It's worth looking at our peaks and troughs, as well as our averages and that oft forgotten but very useful statistic - the median.

The difference between the average and the median doesn't tell us whether we're making money (the average is what you want there) but it does tell us whether we're more positively affected by the blockbusters than we are negatively affected by the disasters.

Most years, our average is bumped by the blockbusters, in other years the blockbusters are thin so the few shockers we get each year (and we do get some) are more prominent.

Here's the pattern including this year's figures so far:



So the blockbuster had a bigger effect than the disaster, and otherwise we've been pretty steady. The median is a pretty good measure of our core. We're healthy enough, and need only have a good holiday season and derbies to drive the numbers up. So NYE, Newcastle (twice), Sydney again and West Sydney again will help us out, with only Heart and Victory to break the pattern. And we typically draw pretty well against Victory anyway (barring rainy Friday nights with delays on the rail line and the game on FTA).

**********

As for the academy stuff - it makes sense to drive the player pathway into the north. It's not new either - we had relationships with Granville, Gladesville Hornsby and Northern Suburbs (then Ku-Ring-Gai) from day one. Encouraging greater link-ups with Manly United, Northern Tigers and Spirit FC to feed our NYL sides (in addition to CCMA) makes perfect sense.

For the same reason as it makes sense for the W-League to play some matches in northern sydney, it also makes sense for the NYL side. Cromer Park is a good spot for this sort of thing and doesn't have a cricket pitch. Northern Suburbs are also building a ground, and Gladesville Hornsby has Christie Park.

That's a really simple way to drive the recruiting footprint and the audience may follow.

If local young talent is heading up the F3 rather than over the bridge, some fans (not all) will follow.

 

[dibo]

. i mentioned this earlier , but $7,500! and he wants a reduced rate? to what?

. if that is the case let's look at some numbers:

• $7,500 x 13 home games = $97,500 in rental fees ... a year!
• lets assume 'other' costs are consistent regardless of the venue ... so excluding security, road closures, etc
• also exclude finals games (apparently that is the ffa's cost) and acl (for the sake of the argument)
• a 50% reduction will save $48,750 ... a year!
• free rental will save $97,500 ... a year!
• ok, so i couldn't afford to pick up the tab ... but seriously!

. what does less than $100k a year get you:

• a groundsman, lawn tractor and some petrol?
• the reason for ccm not putting in a tender for management rights seems obvious ... they couldn't manage the stadium for less than $100k pa!
• yet he still wants a better deal!

. what would it take to gain or lose $100k pa through other streams:

• 279 platinum members @ $350
• 375 gold members @ $260
• 500 blue members @ $195
• 4,875 walk up supporters @ say $20 (you could say he has already lost 5,000 people in two games ... not the whole season!)
• if he loses more than say 400 members in the next year ... and gets the rent for free ... he would still be shooting himself in the foot if there was any feet left

. and the money brought to the coast through the quoted 42,000 people is largely an irrelevance to gosford council. if a couple (or a family of 37) wsw supporters attend a match and head for a stuff 'til ya chuck feed at the leagues club beforehand ... how much money does the council see before the profits are taken to a holding company off the coast?

. anybody get the feeling i think this is all illogical?

You're all over it.

 

[midfielder]

Did someone miss a zero off that number and it's really $75,000 per match? Whinging about $7,500 is a joke. We could pass a hat round and come up with that every week.

It's $ 75, 000 plus costs I think... ie security ...

In a game of bluff and counter bluff who will blink first ... without the Mariners BT gets little use ... 4 RL matches an corals ... RL seems to have looking away from the CC for expansion teams ... and the new RU competition starting in late August going to November will have a Newcastle side it is said not a CC side ... we walk and BT becomes a big white elephant, and voters are pissed off ... we stay but want to pay peanuts ... So does council call our bluff and say go we want this much and don't care if you move ...

I hope a result of all this upheaval there are positive outcomes ...

 

[dibo]

It's $ 75, 000 plus costs I think... ie security ...

In a game of bluff and counter bluff who will blink first ... without the Mariners BT gets little use ... 4 RL matches an corals ... RL seems to have looking away from the CC for expansion teams ... and the new RU competition starting in late August going to November will have a Newcastle side it is said not a CC side ... we walk and BT becomes a big white elephant, and voters are pissed off ... we stay but want to pay peanuts ... So does council call our bluff and say go we want this much and don't care if you move ...

I hope a result of all this upheaval there are positive outcomes ...

$75k/match would make $975k/year.

 

[bikinigirl]

It's $ 75, 000 plus costs I think... ie security ...

. i would be surprised if it was as low as $7,500 as quoted in the article ... but i would also think that $75,000 would not make it the cheapest in the league

. perhaps it is $75,000 including security and shit ... but then you are back to comparing bananas and jackfruit

 

[bikinigirl]

$75k/match would make $975k/year.

. which would be our reported loss ... or perhaps all the numbers are being deliberately (or even inadvertently) blurred by those with some of the facts

 

[dibo]

. which would be our reported loss ... or perhaps all the numbers are being deliberately (or even inadvertently) blurred by those with some of the facts

What? Someone, a salesman even, using assymetric information to manipulate an outcome that suits them?

Also, $75k means the club needs to earn $7.50 per ticket on 10,000 tickets to break even.

Alternative formulations are $5 on 15,000 tickets, $10 on 7,500 tickets...

There'll be a sweet spot somewhere.

Our reported loss was also last year when for this year we receive $600k additional TV money, we have more sponsors on board, memberships are well up, crowds are almost certain to be higher by the end of the year...

I reckon it is possible for us to not make a loss this year. It's not possible for us to make a big surplus - the business doesn't work that way. If he's here for that, he's in the wrong business. The only way to make a small fortune in football is to start with a large fortune.

 

[nebakke]

. perhaps it is $75,000 including security and shit ... but then you are back to comparing bananas and jackfruit

Thank you for expanding my horizons here ... Probably reflecting my (far-)northern hemisphere upbringing, but my immediate thought was - "wtf is a jackfruit???"
A wikipedia search later, I now feel suitably enlightened

 

[scottmac]

. which would be our reported loss ... or perhaps all the numbers are being deliberately (or even inadvertently) blurred by those with some of the facts

Come on. Since when has that happened with this club

 

[nebakke]

Our reported loss was also last year when for this year we receive $600k additional TV money, we have more sponsors on board, memberships are well up, crowds are almost certain to be higher by the end of the year...

This is what I don't understand.... As you pointed out, owning a football club was never a money-making venture.. There's a reason why so many sports teams tend to be treated like expensive jewelry for rich, middle-aged men... It's the Ferrari for the guy who already has three.
That being the case, we KNOW that income MUST have improved on last year, guaranteed more-or-less... So why are we now looking at drastic measures, before it is seen impact the new operating environment will have on the club?

 

[scottmac]

This is what I don't understand.... As you pointed out, owning a football club was never a money-making venture.. There's a reason why so many sports teams tend to be treated like expensive jewelry for rich, middle-aged men... It's the Ferrari for the guy who already has three.
That being the case, we KNOW that income MUST have improved on last year, guaranteed more-or-less... So why are we now looking at drastic measures, before it is seen impact the new operating environment will have on the club?

You don't understand because you are looking for logic where it doesn't exist.
Maybe a study into the man rather than the club would answer your questions. The drastic as you put it is a direct result of the words from his mouth.
I'm sure it's been as bad if not worse for others in his situation here & at other clubs.

 

[dibo]

Perhaps instead of being Clive Mk.II, he should look at the experience of Clive Mk.I.

Clive complained about losses and not being sufficiently supported, and took drastic measures to cut costs. Crowds fell even further, and Clive blamed FFA rather than look at what he'd done.

ABC was tipping us to get 5k tonight (so going back to Northern Spirit days in more ways than one it seems) and this would be fine as a try-it-once thing, but talking about this being a potential part-relocation is bound to be doing damage at our actual home. How long til we're closing stands for A-League games as well as ACL games to save cash?

When a sense of impending crisis is being engineered by the owner, the club get the all-too-familiar (for Australian football fans anyway) smell of death about it. Nobody wants to be around that, and the sense of impending crisis is a self-fulfilling prophecy.