CCM Fans and the club

[Mug Punter]

*--My bad re FABIO

Look, I find this whole "We're lucky to have a club" attitude pathetic.

The reality for ANYONE who stumps up to own a professional football club is that it's not a normal business and it carries big risk.

The idea that you have an entitlement to make money out of a football club is, ironically, the most surefire way of losing money because fans expect, and rightly so, a base level of investment. If they feel they are being taken for granted they will withdraw support and a downward spiral follows. This is exactly what we are seeing at the Mariners.

I and others are not being unreasonable. I don't expect the club to spend beyond its means in a silly way but I do expect us to have some chance of being competitive before I pay for my ST. This is the base level investment you take on with a football club and for us paying the salary cap, which by the way is paid to us by FFA is that minimum. It's the need to invest to a reasonable level. To a large extent finding the money or funding the shortfall is not our problem it is MCs as he commits to funding a club to a base level when he takes on the licence.

All the other stuff is self inflicted by the club as far as I am concerned. They will have lost at least 1,500 fans per match this year because of the turgid offering they have presented and that could have easily allowed the club to pay the full cap.

I think the club have a major agenda. They have two businesses here, a property business, which is or will be profitable and which relies on the football club for its existence.

I bet MC has the two business as separate in his mind. His plan is to keep the property business but sell or relocate the football business and his running down of the club and it's self fulfilling prophesy allows him to go to the FFA and put a gun to it's head at some stage and say, relocate us to Kogarah (or North Sydney or Liverpool) or I pull the pin out now and leave you with a 9 team comp. The FFA doesn't care about us, the only want to fish where the fish are and the Jets experience is one they don't want to repeat so they may well agree.

Owning an A League Club requires a long term commitment. In time clubs will be viable but they require a long term commitment. If MC doesn't have that then he should sell up or return his licence to the A League. I am absolutely certain a Chinese Super League club would be quite happy to buy us and be prepared to accept modest losses ($500,000 - $750,000 per year) for the next 5 years whilst having the payoff of a club in one of the world's top 15 leagues for an absolute snip.

Anyone vaguely aware of Peter Storey's career in UK football and particularly at Portsmouth should be very very afraid of our future. How on earth did he pass a fit and proper person test? Oh, we don't have one at the FFA....

It's simple for me, I won't be returning until the club makes a proper commitment to the fans. The happy clappers on here can do whatever they like....

 

[adz]

The happy clappers on here can do whatever they like....

Have you read any of the other posts on here? Or just decided to go on a rant and assume everyone else is a "happy clapper"...

 

[scottmac]

Mug i get what your saying but in regards to troops on the park they've been hamstrung by poor choices which i agree are completely of their own doing. Once the payments to past players are done and dusted and they serve up a year like this one in regards to recruitment and results then I'll be of the same opinion.

As for running down the football club to serve some type of agenda the proof just isn't solid. Yeah he tried to"expand the customer base" which was done extremely poorly but that has been buried as far as anyone can see. All signs other than on the park this year have been the best they have been for years. You just can't deny that.

We've all had your view at some stage but not in regards to results. Last year your post would have had lots of traction. Not now im afraid. It smacks of a fan upset with a poor year from a mediocre squad. This might be the first we've had, it most definitely will not be the last.

IMO you need a teaspoon of concrete.

 

[Mug Punter]

Mug i get what your saying but in regards to troops on the park they've been hamstrung by poor choices which i agree are completely of their own doing. Once the payments to past players are done and dusted and they serve up a year like this one in regards to recruitment and results then I'll be of the same opinion.

As for running down the football club to serve some type of agenda the proof just isn't solid. Yeah he tried to"expand the customer base" which was done extremely poorly but that has been buried as far as anyone can see. All signs other than on the park this year have been the best they have been for years. You just can't deny that.

We've all had your view at some stage but not in regards to results. Last year your post would have had lots of traction. Not now im afraid. It smacks of a fan upset with a poor year from a mediocre squad. This might be the first we've had, it most definitely will not be the last.

IMO you need a teaspoon of concrete.

Traction? What world do you live in? Are you not seeing the crowds plummet. Are you not watching the games?

This season is much more than a poor season, much much worse. We started off with a very poor squad and then proceeded to send three of our best remaining players packing with no replacements.

I can handle a year from hell but this must be a one-off. The club needs to seriously address this. Six senior players of decent quality and none of the few decent players out. If they sell Mitch then I think it will be all she wrote for me and a lot of other fans.

Have a look at Peter Storey's football CV, fill you with confidence?

 

[JoyfulPenguin]

*--My bad re FABIO

Look, I find this whole "We're lucky to have a club" attitude pathetic.

The reality for ANYONE who stumps up to own a professional football club is that it's not a normal business and it carries big risk.

The idea that you have an entitlement to make money out of a football club is, ironically, the most surefire way of losing money because fans expect, and rightly so, a base level of investment. If they feel they are being taken for granted they will withdraw support and a downward spiral follows. This is exactly what we are seeing at the Mariners.

I and others are not being unreasonable. I don't expect the club to spend beyond its means in a silly way but I do expect us to have some chance of being competitive before I pay for my ST. This is the base level investment you take on with a football club and for us paying the salary cap, which by the way is paid to us by FFA is that minimum. It's the need to invest to a reasonable level. To a large extent finding the money or funding the shortfall is not our problem it is MCs as he commits to funding a club to a base level when he takes on the licence.

All the other stuff is self inflicted by the club as far as I am concerned. They will have lost at least 1,500 fans per match this year because of the turgid offering they have presented and that could have easily allowed the club to pay the full cap.

I think the club have a major agenda. They have two businesses here, a property business, which is or will be profitable and which relies on the football club for its existence.

I bet MC has the two business as separate in his mind. His plan is to keep the property business but sell or relocate the football business and his running down of the club and it's self fulfilling prophesy allows him to go to the FFA and put a gun to it's head at some stage and say, relocate us to Kogarah (or North Sydney or Liverpool) or I pull the pin out now and leave you with a 9 team comp. The FFA doesn't care about us, the only want to fish where the fish are and the Jets experience is one they don't want to repeat so they may well agree.

Owning an A League Club requires a long term commitment. In time clubs will be viable but they require a long term commitment. If MC doesn't have that then he should sell up or return his licence to the A League. I am absolutely certain a Chinese Super League club would be quite happy to buy us and be prepared to accept modest losses ($500,000 - $750,000 per year) for the next 5 years whilst having the payoff of a club in one of the world's top 15 leagues for an absolute snip.

Anyone vaguely aware of Peter Storey's career in UK football and particularly at Portsmouth should be very very afraid of our future. How on earth did he pass a fit and proper person test? Oh, we don't have one at the FFA....

It's simple for me, I won't be returning until the club makes a proper commitment to the fans. The happy clappers on here can do whatever they like....

If Charlesworth wanted and thought we would be viable in North Sydney we would be there already. How much of a long term commitment can Charlesworth give then clearing all the debt the club has, building an academy and side business to keep the Mariners sustainable even if he, himself can no longer afford to fund us. No one wants to own an A-League side shown by how long it has taken to find buyers for all of them. Heart was on the market for 3 years and only had two offers (one from South Melbourne)!It took 18 months and the greatest success a club in this league can have to sell the Wanderers! If all these Chinese Super League clubs are lining up to buy A-League clubs why haven't the Jets been sold yet? Charlesworth actually invested more than the salary cap this season (because contracts that get cancelled not through mutual termination still count towards the cap). Without having to clear debt we will be able to invest a lot more plus even more sustainably through the COE. The Mariners have to or at least be close to breaking even each because Charlesworth can't afford to lose massive amounts of money every year. If you think there should be more investment in the club then pay for it yourself by either buying a membership or a share in the club because as of now we cannot afford to pay more.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

If there are so many Chinese clubs out there willing to buy in how come the Jets have not been sold. Bargain at $5m with large support base and the "home of football" in NSW.

And if you think the FFA will fund a second club at the same time, when they have stated future expansion will be in the population centres (big cities) your dreaming.

If our licence goes back to the FFA it will be shifted to the South of Sydney or lumped in with Newcastle to make that deal more attractive with a second Sydney team started from scratch.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I have never posted before here and this will be my last

Promises, promises..............

 

[JoyfulPenguin]

Traction? What world do you live in? Are you not seeing the crowds plummet. Are you not watching the games?

This season is much more than a poor season, much much worse. We started off with a very poor squad and then proceeded to send three of our best remaining players packing with no replacements.

I can handle a year from hell but this must be a one-off. The club needs to seriously address this. Six senior players of decent quality and none of the few decent players out. If they sell Mitch then I think it will be all she wrote for me and a lot of other fans.

Have a look at Peter Storey's football CV, fill you with confidence?

It will only be one off year. The reason those players were forced to leave was because they had alliances with disgruntled former emplyees which lead to leaks of information, bad mouthed all at the club and under performed. Investment has been promised next year. It was always going to be a difficult transitional year but we will be better for it going forward and will no longer continue to spiral into oblivion. I definitely don't agree with Peter Storrie appointment but if the only person who is willing to stump up the cash for us to survive wants him then that's up to him.

 

[FFC Mariner]

To be fair, anyone who thinks Storrie is somehow good for a football club is either unable to use Google or thinks that leopards can change their spots.

Just because "mug" doesn't follow the narrative of most on here doesn't make him wrong. Nor right, but he deserves more than the laughably naive "real supporter" jibe.

I'd also like to know the composition of $6m of debt. Happy to be corrected but wasn't it reported as a bit over $2m and the COE still had a debt to buy the RSL (3m wasn't it?).

I'd argue the MC has got his money back for the club itself and now has a property development he is selling (up to 85% is available)

Now you can see why people doubt his commitment.

 

[Mug Punter]

It will only be one off year. The reason those players were forced to leave was because they had alliances with disgruntled former emplyees which lead to leaks of information, bad mouthed all at the club and under performed. Investment has been promised next year. It was always going to be a difficult transitional year but we will be better for it going forward and will no longer continue to spiral into oblivion. I definitely don't agree with Peter Storrie appointment but if the only person who is willing to stump up the cash for us to survive wants him then that's up to him.

I hope you are right, time will tell....

I do not think I am the only one that is looking for some answers over the off-season

 

[Mug Punter]

To be fair, anyone who thinks Storrie is somehow good for a football club is either unable to use Google or thinks that leopards can change their spots.

Just because "mug" doesn't follow the narrative of most on here doesn't make him wrong. Nor right, but he deserves more than the laughably naive "real supporter" jibe.

I'd also like to know the composition of $6m of debt. Happy to be corrected but wasn't it reported as a bit over $2m and the COE still had a debt to buy the RSL (3m wasn't it?).

I'd argue the MC has got his money back for the club itself and now has a property development he is selling (up to 85% is available)

Now you can see why people doubt his commitment.

All MC wants is the COE property investment, the CCMFC are an unfortunate sideline..

 

[Mug Punter]

We need seven new first team players

It will only be one off year. The reason those players were forced to leave was because they had alliances with disgruntled former emplyees which lead to leaks of information, bad mouthed all at the club and under performed. Investment has been promised next year. It was always going to be a difficult transitional year but we will be better for it going forward and will no longer continue to spiral into oblivion. I definitely don't agree with Peter Storrie appointment but if the only person who is willing to stump up the cash for us to survive wants him then that's up to him.

If Charlesworth wanted and thought we would be viable in North Sydney we would be there already. How much of a long term commitment can Charlesworth give then clearing all the debt the club has, building an academy and side business to keep the Mariners sustainable even if he, himself can no longer afford to fund us. No one wants to own an A-League side shown by how long it has taken to find buyers for all of them. Heart was on the market for 3 years and only had two offers (one from South Melbourne)!It took 18 months and the greatest success a club in this league can have to sell the Wanderers! If all these Chinese Super League clubs are lining up to buy A-League clubs why haven't the Jets been sold yet? Charlesworth actually invested more than the salary cap this season (because contracts that get cancelled not through mutual termination still count towards the cap). Without having to clear debt we will be able to invest a lot more plus even more sustainably through the COE. The Mariners have to or at least be close to breaking even each because Charlesworth can't afford to lose massive amounts of money every year. If you think there should be more investment in the club then pay for it yourself by either buying a membership or a share in the club because as of now we cannot afford to pay more.

Oh the old, if you don't have the money to buy the club yourself then don't criticise the owners argument, how childish....

The love on here for Mike Charlesworth is something to behold it really is.

He has one season to sort the mess he has created out and quickly.

I'd love to have what is in your Koolaid

 

[dibo]

People disagreeing with you doesn't mean that they love MC.

Plenty of us have been plenty critical of MC for a long time, but as you signed up today you'd have no idea about that.

Feel free to come on and have a spray, but don't expect that everyone's going to agree with everything you say.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I have never posted before here and this will be my last

Promises, promises.......

Bump.

But maybe you don't see my posts.

 

[JoyfulPenguin]

We need seven new first team players



Oh the old, if you don't have the money to buy the club yourself then don't criticise the owners argument, how childish....

The love on here for Mike Charlesworth is something to behold it really is.

He has one season to sort the mess he has created out and quickly.

I'd love to have what is in your Koolaid

I'm not saying don't criticise the ownership but be understanding in that we had a tough year but it was a tough year we had to have. It's very easy to critique and watch from afar, but actually stump up the cash put yourself and your employees on the line is another thing entirely. If this had been endemic since the day one of the Mariners with no movement forward then I'd agree with all of your protestations but it isn't. It's one at best two bad seasons and if it continues next season then there should be anger against the current plans. But not now, if you aren't willing to even just buy a membership why should Charlesworth lose 500,000-750,000 which is only a modest loss for billionaires. Not for him or anyone willing to invest in Australian football except for maybe CFG or Sydney FC. Thus we need to play within our means and we can still win while doing that.

 

[Mug Punter]

Right, I know you probably all think I'm a troll but I am a genuine Mariners Fan....

Looking back through several of the posts I have to say that the club supporters on here are extremely generous in the benefit of the doubt you give MC and PS, given their history I think you are being very generous but in many ways we don't have the choice.

Now, this is clearly all pretty murky but my understanding is we are paying the bare minimum this year for our players which is $2,210,000 (85% of $2,600,000). One would think Garcia is on top of that...

Now, people are also saying that we are paying big % of the current salaries of perfectly good past players just to get them off the books and that our "real" salary bill paying our current squad is close to $1,800,000. OMG the mismanagement gets worse and worse....

Anyway, if that is the case then it really does explain why we are so terrible this year.

And IF we stop paying those bills next year then even if we go up to, say, $2,400,000 as a gesture of goodwill (not full salary cap but less then the full max) then you would hope that, if you released six players on $70,000 per year and replaced them with six players who are, on average, on $170,000 a year then our squad could then become competitive.

I can only hope so because if they don't then sub 5,000 crowd will be the norm next season

 

[scottmac]

Mate we've all been there before. Like i said if you'd posted this last year the majority of us would have been right there with you.

 

[Rowdy]

Right, I know you probably all think I'm a troll but I am a genuine Mariners Fan....

"May I have your attention please"


"Cause I'm Rowdy Roddy, yes I'm the real Roddy

All you other Rowdy Roddy's are just imitat'n

So won't the real 'Mug Punter' please stand up,

Please stand up, please stand up?"

Troll ? No, but you've had me giggling a Multi-tude of times throughout today.

I will happily buy a beer for the first person who correctly PM's me their guess as to who (imo) the real 'Mug Punter' is.

Very subtle clues in and amongst his post's for those with an eagle eye and a good memory.

 

[Mug Punter]

"May I have your attention please"


"Cause I'm Rowdy Roddy, yes I'm the real Roddy

All you other Rowdy Roddy's are just imitat'n

So won't the real 'Mug Punter' please stand up,

Please stand up, please stand up?"

Troll ? No, but you've had me giggling a Multi-tude of times throughout today.

I will happily buy a beer for the first person who correctly PM's me their guess as to who (imo) the real 'Mug Punter' is.

Very subtle clues in and amongst his post's for those with an eagle eye and a good memory.

Do tell me when you found out, I did post here for about a fortnight about seven years ago but I'd be surprised if rant was so memorable.....

 

[Forum Phoenix]

G'day Mug. Happy clappy phoenix here mate.

Why we should be negative:

* Because we were bloody awful this year and won the spoon.

What should we expect?

* Better.

You won't get any arguments there from any posters on here. So it's lazy, untrue and insulting to pretend the debate on here is simply about a pre disposition towards negativity or optimism. (Which swings both ways) And I think people should ditch that line of argument. It just polarises things, hijacks the discussion and dumbs it down.

So if you had a mind to come down off your impressively high horse mug, while we do all go off road sometimes, you'd see that the discussions/arguments on here are typically pretty informed debate by people who are all passionate about CCM and the best way forward - even if we may strongly differ on how to go about it. IMHO, that's what a good forum should be.

That said, when people say that they won't stay a member unless we're good on the park, that's their prerogative, but it's always going to piss off other supporters who want the team to play well, but believe football support is about the thick and thin - so you don't walk away when there are problems. You try to figure them out, and tough it out. Finger pointing is easy. Solving shit... a lot less so.

But the happy, possibly even clappy, common ground is we all believe that there needs to be change.

And you've either got rocks in your head or you're also not paying attention - if you don't think the club is talking and wanting change as well.

They've said they're committed to it. Barring the still raging TW debate, they've identified the same concerns we have and they've owned them. They also owned their mistakes. The problem they have is that they can't orchestrate the change immediately. That hurts us and them. But it's the reality.

So the debate continues over why we have been so shit...

*Most seem to believe coach first, lack of quality/experienced players second.

*Some that the lack of funds from being a regional club coupled with previous overspending/debt when met by a tight purse/Moneyball youth focused - approach to correct it, led to the youngest squad in HAL history which equaled an inexperienced/weak squad and so the coaching quality is very hard to accurately gauge.

*A few others believe the Club management MC/Storrie is determined to run us into the ground.

I find this one fundamentally flawed, and so it comes across as either being a bit naive or jaded/cynical to be honest. Being it's an argument based on being motivated by financial gain, yet it ignores the fact that the destruction of the CCM brand would greatly impact on both the possibilities for growth and the value of the COE. MC would have to be a mug indeed.

I think the club got some things very wrong. And I'll also say that I was one who was very vocal in believing that we realistically needed a bigger squad spend to stay competitive long before a ball was kicked this season. Like some others after the NSO debacle I was unsure if the lack of spend was because MC was the anti christ or if it was business. I just knew we needed it. But the club did well communicating on their attempts at sustainability this year and convinced me it was the latter. It was logical, factually held up and has failed on but worked off the field. And I'm more forgiving because it's pretty reasonable to believe our season would not have been half as bad had Reddy, Bosnar, Fitz and Caceres bought in and given it their all - as they should have - and Roy didn't get himself suspended for such a large period - and also that the refereeing was of better quality. Which would have mitigated Roy's suspension to start.

But anyway, I'm sure the club will get your membership back sooner rather than later Mug punter, as from what most can see - with as little as 3 high quality players through our spine we will almost certainly be very competitive again. Hopefully even more so...

There's clearly a lot of talent developing in the wings - it just needs time - and this is more than I can say for most other clubs who have to always buy there's in - so it's a lot brighter prospect for the next 3-4 seasons (and in possible transfer fees) than having multiple elder state league players or old sub standard journeymen filling up the bulk of your squad depth. And if we can combine that with a decent chunk more on player spending - without going under or failing to pay super and move games etc etc - well then despite all the heart ache, doom and gloom and a wooden f**king spoon, now that the finances are sorted... the worst of it may be behind us.

So clap yo' hands...clap yo' hands... sing Hallelujah CCM! And clap them hands!