Turbulence (then calm sailing, then turbulence) thread.

[dibo]

We have the same salary cap (and floor) as everyone else. If we fail to recruit as well as others, whose fault is that? It's not the fault of the PFA or the salary cap that our squad's a bit thin. It's also not the fault of the PFA or the salary cap that our corporate and community operations' wheels appear to have fallen off.

Don't imagine for a second that Mitchell Duke is actually on $200k+ - it's seriously unlikely that a fantasy football game actually matches real salaries or that salaries match the NRL.

NRL salaries are much higher - the NRL cap is over $6m for 25 players vs $2.5m for 23. And their average crowds are not that much bigger than ours - Canberra drew 9k last year, Penrith 11k, Cronulla 12k, Tigers 13k... They're not drawing double what A-League clubs.

Their ticket prices and memberships are similar to ours, they aren't drawing that much more on the gate. What they get is NRL clubs also get a grant of $7m a season thanks to the TV grant.

FFA gives us $2.5m but that number is much bigger than it was, and if rumours are to be believed it's going to be bigger again next time, on the condition that we have more clubs.

There will inevitably be a battle between the PFA and FFA on wages, but that's a natural industrial discussion in a growing industry.

But most clubs in the league are swinging towards profitability, and the TV deal is only going to help. When that happens, they're hardly going to be bailing on markets like the Central Coast.

 

[MrCelery]

I note with a wry smile all the mentions of travel distances between North Sydney and Central Coast Stadium (Mariners FC), versus North Sydney and Sydney Football Stadium (Smurfs FC). Has anyone calculated how many fans the Mariners have that live NORTH of Gosford and whose alternative is Bogan Scum FC, and who are inconvenienced by the move south? Not that supporting the Bogans is a palatable choice, of course.

I don't think FFA is particularly set on keeping the Mariners afloat. Their view for the Central Coast market would likely be that the maximum travel time between Gosford and Sydney FC and the Jets is only 1.5 hours either way, so the Coast is adequately served by two A-League clubs with the Mariners a luxury they can't afford. Lets face it, no other State has the luxury of a regional club, let alone two.

Better pray the Mr Charlesworth continues to fund our club, or someone else can be found who will.

When someone comes up with a sound alternative owner with a good plan, I'll listen to them. But to those who shout "Out with Charlesworth" but have no alternative, sorry, I have no time for you.

 

[gull]

I note with a wry smile all the mentions of travel distances between North Sydney and Central Coast Stadium (Mariners FC), versus North Sydney and Sydney Football Stadium (Smurfs FC). Has anyone calculated how many fans the Mariners have that live NORTH of Gosford and whose alternative is Bogan Scum FC, and who are inconvenienced by the move south? Not that supporting the Bogans is a palatable choice, of course.

I don't think FFA is particularly set on keeping the Mariners afloat. Their view for the Central Coast market would likely be that the maximum travel time between Gosford and Sydney FC and the Jets is only 1.5 hours either way, so the Coast is adequately served by two A-League clubs with the Mariners a luxury they can't afford. Lets face it, no other State has the luxury of a regional club, let alone two.

Better pray the Mr Charlesworth continues to fund our club, or someone else can be found who will.

When someone comes up with a sound alternative owner with a good plan, I'll listen to them. But to those who shout "Out with Charlesworth" but have no alternative, sorry, I have no time for you.

So we should blindly follow what he does without question?

This club represents our region, and many of us have been with them since inception, far longer than he has been around.

As I've said before he is a businessman who is looking for a return, not a benevolent saviour that we need to bow down to.

Given the continually inconsistent messages from the man himself we have every right to question his motives and decisions. We've been told "no more than one or two games", "four games" & " a minimum of 10 games at Gosford" in the last week.

Last night's game was a pathetic joke and I won't bend over and say thank you to someone making the club I support look foolish.

 

[dibo]

I don't think FFA is particularly set on keeping the Mariners afloat. Their view for the Central Coast market would likely be that the maximum travel time between Gosford and Sydney FC and the Jets is only 1.5 hours either way, so the Coast is adequately served by two A-League clubs with the Mariners a luxury they can't afford. Lets face it, no other State has the luxury of a regional club, let alone two.

You think the FFA is going to walk away from 10 years of effort and burn a market at the same time as it's trying to convince investors in other markets to pony up to start a club? Ignore what Charlesworth does for the moment, if FFA lets the presence on the Central Coast lapse, they're basically saying don't bother supporting a regional club.

 

[MrCelery]

So we should blindly follow what he does without question?

This club represents our region, and many of us have been with them since inception, far longer than he has been around.

As I've said before he is a businessman who is looking for a return, not a benevolent savior that we need to bow down to.

Given the continually inconsistent messages from the man himself we have every right to question his motives and decisions. We've been told "no more than one or two games", "four games" & " a minimum of 10 games at Gosford" in the last week.

Last night's game was a pathetic joke and I won't bend over and say thank you to someone making the club I support look foolish.

Did I say blindly follow him? Without question? Nope. Did I say we should thank him? Nope. Don't twist my words.

Blindness is trying to pull down our Club by moaning on and on coupled with personal abuse until the owner is over it, and you are left club-less and scratching your arse in Gosford while watching the Bogans and Sydney FC compete in the A-League.

By all means voice your concerns in a constructive manner. Better still, find a local owner with megabucks. But the current alternative to "Charlesworth out" is locking the gates to the stadium permanently, not just for a few matches. You may find that acceptable. I don't.

 

[dibo]

By all means voice your concerns in a constructive manner. Better still, find a local owner with megabucks. But the current alternative to "Charlesworth out" is locking the gates to the stadium permanently, not just for a few matches. You may find that acceptable. I don't.

I don't think this is true. Leaving aside the rest of your post, I just don't think this is true.

What's more, as I've expressed in here a number of times I don't think it's necessarily true that we have a choice between either moving games or losing fistfuls of money. For a start, I don't see us making money or winning fans (in net terms, i.e. winning more than we lose) through moving games, and I don't think it's necessary that we lose fistfuls of money in Gosford because I think there are a range of things that could be done better in terms of engaging the community to bring fans in and corporate supporters and make some more cash, and there are avenues to raise more capital.

 

[MrCelery]

You think the FFA is going to walk away from 10 years of effort and burn a market at the same time as it's trying to convince investors in other markets to pony up to start a club? Ignore what Charlesworth does for the moment, if FFA lets the presence on the Central Coast lapse, they're basically saying don't bother supporting a regional club.

Frankly Dibo, yes I do.

You've made me recall a discussion I had with a few North Sydney CEOs many, many years ago during the Breakers era. Over a very pleasant coffee in North Sydney we discussed the future of football during the time when many NSL clubs were being run by the ethnic local fruiterer, cafe proprietor or kebab shop owner. They presented me a very clear vision of the future that is startlingly close to what we now have in the A-League.

They said the game's future will be driven not from local markets but from capital city, national and international markets. They said the local population figures and local support bases will become less and less important, and that any club without a number of very large major sponsors will be doomed at the highest level.

The sad fact is that the Central Coast, despite the generous and well meaning local businesses that support the club, is not a haven for major investors.

If regional clubs continue to falter, and the regional club model proves unattractive to investors, I'm sure the FFA wouldn't have a moment's hesitation in going where the investors actually want to feed.

I'm convinced that the only reason that the Central Coast still has a club is because we are 'the little Club that could'. We've had ten years of punching above our weight, and have gained the respect to the point that it WOULD be embarrassing to the FFA if the Mariners folded. But that goodwill will only go so far.

I'm not saying that FFA would think there is no place for a club like the Mariners in football. But in their minds that place could be in a 2nd division that is a feeder to the capital city clubs. I sure hope that I'm wrong!

 

[MrCelery]

I don't think this is true. Leaving aside the rest of your post, I just don't think this is true.

What's more, as I've expressed in here a number of times I don't think it's necessarily true that we have a choice between either moving games or losing fistfuls of money. For a start, I don't see us making money or winning fans (in net terms, i.e. winning more than we lose) through moving games, and I don't think it's necessary that we lose fistfuls of money in Gosford because I think there are a range of things that could be done better in terms of engaging the community to bring fans in and corporate supporters and make some more cash, and there are avenues to raise more capital.

Dibo, I think you're missing my point. My point is about a genuine alternative to Mr Charlesworth for the 'Charlesworth out' brigade. I'm the last person that wants to move game to Sydney, as I have to travel from Lake Macquarie.

 

[dibo]

What do you mean 'continue to falter'? We've had three clubs die in total, one badly executed club in NZ, one prematurely started and then prematurely killed in North Queensland and one killed by the megalomania of Clive Palmer.

The Mariners have lost money for almost every year of their existence, along with every other club in the league barring Melbourne Victory and now Brisbane. It's nothing to do with being a regional club. Reports would suggest we lose less than most, it's just our owner's less willing/able to fund the operation. But most are swinging towards the black as business gets better.

We've got two years to the next TV deal. We need either for MC to pull some cash out or we need a capital injection (from FFA if need be) to get through to the next TV deal, at which point the structural position of club budgets swings further again to the black, probably lifting most if not all into regular profitability.

The FFA wants the A-League to expand. It wants owners to start new clubs. It can't have owners killing off existing clubs or burning existing markets or it will never find another new owner.

And if the TV deal does swing us around to the black and the league starts expanding again, chances are MC will more than make his money back on CCMFC. He's just got to have the patience to let it happen rather than f**king up the fundamentals of the club and guaranteeing we fail.

 

[gull]

Did I say blindly follow him? Without question? Nope. Did I say we should thank him? Nope. Don't twist my words.

Blindness is trying to pull down our Club by moaning on and on coupled with personal abuse until the owner is over it, and you are left club-less and scratching your arse in Gosford while watching the Bogans and Sydney FC compete in the A-League.

By all means voice your concerns in a constructive manner. Better still, find a local owner with megabucks. But the current alternative to "Charlesworth out" is locking the gates to the stadium permanently, not just for a few matches. You may find that acceptable. I don't.

I doubt he would be a successful businessman if he was scared away by this forum.

 

[dibo]

A good point, well made.

 

[Bladesman]

[QUOTE="MrCelery, post: 202578, member: 13

They said the game's future will be driven not from local markets but from capital city, national and international markets. They said the local population figures and local support bases will become less and less important, and that any club without a number of very large major sponsors will be doomed at the highest level.

The sad fact is that the Central Coast, despite the generous and well meaning local businesses that support the club, is not a haven for major investors.

If regional clubs continue to falter, and the regional club model proves unattractive to investors, I'm sure the FFA wouldn't have a moment's hesitation in going where the investors actually want to feed.

I'm convinced that the only reason that the Central Coast still has a club is because we are 'the little Club that could'.[/QUOTE]

So here where I see we have been very poor in expanding our sponsorship opportunities. Why are we limited to "local business" for sponsorship?

Our 'little club that could" image should have been very well received if targeting and building partnerships with the right business's. The little Aussie battler punching above its weight was not exploited at all.

Our Asian Champions league exposure should have been exploited far better.

The club has been short sighted in how we market and engage sponsors, we can't even get it right with our local sponsors so have no chance with larger organisations that are used too much higher levels of professionalism than has been shown.

To make sure we survive and move forward we need to invest in the back office capabilities to Aquire revenue rather than constantly blame lack of fans after completely alienating them.

The COE was supposedly going to deliver revenue to ensure the clubs future, no mention from the club of why this is failing so badly? It failed at SUFC and it is failing here because despite all of the talk of what it is meant to do it is never set up in any other way but to line the pockets of the developers running the club.

 

[rbakersmith]

The COE was supposedly going to deliver revenue to ensure the clubs future, no mention from the club of why this is failing so badly? It failed at SUFC and it is failing here because despite all of the talk of what it is meant to do it is never set up in any other way but to line the pockets of the developers running the club.

Perhaps because the parts of the COE that have been built to date aren't large revenue generators?

I'd argue that we're really only going to see a substantial revenue stream starting with the office block (for example 3 suites were sold for $5.75m back in July), followed by the hotel & licensed club.

 

[Bladesman]

Perhaps because the parts of the COE that have been built to date aren't large revenue generators?

I'd argue that we're really only going to see a substantial revenue stream starting with the office block (for example 3 suites were sold for $5.75m back in July), followed by the hotel & licensed club.

So why all the panic from MC if we have the substantial revenue streams coming on line?

 

[rbakersmith]

So why all the panic from MC if we have the substantial revenue streams coming on line?

Because those substantial revenue streams only come online after he spends (and recoups) $30+M to finish the COE.

 

[Paolo]

Just on the COE, i have it on very good authority we have been granted a large loan from one of the big four banks for the project. So we should see progress soon.

 

[MrCelery]

I doubt he would be a successful businessman if he was scared away by this forum.

Agreed. But who said anything about this forum? The 'Charlesworth Out' brigade are not limited to this forum.

 

[Bladesman]

Because those substantial revenue streams only come online after he spends (and recoups) $30+M to finish the COE.

But he would have known the timeframes before embarking on the project..........once the approvals for the development were approved there was no need for a football club that was used to help get this through, especially one that costs you money. Funding in the short term is a way to speed up you ROI, getting lumbered with it in the longer term, well that could eat into the $ you make.

 

[rbakersmith]

But he would have known the timeframes before embarking on the project..........once the approvals for the development were approved there was no need for a football club that was used to help get this through, especially one that costs you money. Funding in the short term is a way to speed up you ROI, getting lumbered with it in the longer term, well that could eat into the $ you make.

It was Turnbull and McCabe that started the project, not Charlesworth.

 

[dibo]

Just on the COE, i have it on very good authority we have been granted a large loan from one of the big four banks for the project. So we should see progress soon.

That's a pretty good sign. Not least that there's a bank who's looking at the business case and saying "hey, this crazy thing just might work, and even if it doesn't it'll be worth enough we can make our money back."