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Turbulence (then calm sailing, then turbulence) thread.

Ancient Mariner

Well-Known Member
Something needs to be done, The business model for small regional clubs is supremely Ship.

I would suggest lowering the minimum cap floor as a start.

I think that would also make our situation worse.

The system at the moment is already too much in favour of the rich teams who can spend their total cap plus marquees. It will go further in that direction when clubs start to use their marquee allowance more wisely and buy marquees that fit into their structure (SFC and Melbourne this year) rather than a superstar who can cause as much disruption as benefit (e.g. ADP).
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Wanna see some interesting* stats about our crowds so far?

Newcastle R1 - our long term average against them at home is 10,369. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 10,281. We drew 10,443.
Wellington R2 - our long term average against them at home is 8,210. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 7,845. We drew 7,237.
Perth R5 - our long term average against them at home is 9,479. But we've had a bunch of New Year's Eve games against them. Take those out and we average 7,855. We drew 6,391.
Adelaide R7 - our long term average against them at home is 8,540. We drew 6,404.

All up, our long term averages suggest we ought to be averaging 8,630. We drew 7,619. We're down about 12% on our average, so we're not miles off the pace. It's not like we would expect to have drawn over 10k on average for these four games.

Even still, carried across the season we're looking at about 8k average rather than a 9k average if we shed 12% across the board. It's a thinner year anyway with only one visit from each of Newcastle, Sydney and Wanderers.

That's about 13k fewer tickets sold across the season than we might have expected, about 27k fewer than last year.

What really hurts is having so many Sunday games. Sundays we average about 8,705 compared to 9,819 on Saturdays. That's a big deal.

Fridays suck anyway, and will suck even harder with SBS against the gate, but an average of 8,678 pre-SBS and 5,967 post SBS might just be something we seek to offset through better sponsorship thanks to bigger exposure. Sorting out some sort of party theme to get the young folks out would be a good idea too, methinks, and some sort of gig post-match might be fun? Who knows.

But it's not like the bottom has fallen out of the club all of a sudden. We're having an off-year, no doubt, but a bit of form and a good holiday period could perk it right back up again.

*...in the eye of the beholder and all that.
 

eenfish

Well-Known Member
Also worth noting, as mentioned in the membership thread, we're around about 6000 members.

I think you;re right about it being able match times, Dibo. Sunday has never been good for us, and when you factor in the poor football I don't think we've done too bad at attendance at all.
 

Bladesman

Well-Known Member
Wanna see some interesting* stats about our crowds so far?

Newcastle R1 - our long term average against them at home is 10,369. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 10,281. We drew 10,443.
Wellington R2 - our long term average against them at home is 8,210. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 7,845. We drew 7,237.
Perth R5 - our long term average against them at home is 9,479. But we've had a bunch of New Year's Eve games against them. Take those out and we average 7,855. We drew 6,391.
Adelaide R7 - our long term average against them at home is 8,540. We drew 6,404.

All up, our long term averages suggest we ought to be averaging 8,630. We drew 7,619. We're down about 12% on our average, so we're not miles off the pace. It's not like we would expect to have drawn over 10k on average for these four games.

Even still, carried across the season we're looking at about 8k average rather than a 9k average if we shed 12% across the board. It's a thinner year anyway with only one visit from each of Newcastle, Sydney and Wanderers.

That's about 13k fewer tickets sold across the season than we might have expected, about 27k fewer than last year.

What really hurts is having so many Sunday games. Sundays we average about 8,705 compared to 9,819 on Saturdays. That's a big deal.

Fridays suck anyway, and will suck even harder with SBS against the gate, but an average of 8,678 pre-SBS and 5,967 post SBS might just be something we seek to offset through better sponsorship thanks to bigger exposure. Sorting out some sort of party theme to get the young folks out would be a good idea too, methinks, and some sort of gig post-match might be fun? Who knows.

But it's not like the bottom has fallen out of the club all of a sudden. We're having an off-year, no doubt, but a bit of form and a good holiday period could perk it right back up again.

*...in the eye of the beholder and all that.

I'm a much simpler person with my analysis - took 2 games to Canberra lost 3k off the average which was over 10k the previous season. Rebuilding back, take 2 games to Sydney and have lost 2k off the gate. The 7.5k mark seems to be about what we average when we screw the fans over.
 

Ancient Mariner

Well-Known Member
All very simple and very climate change denier in assigning cause and effect. i.e. looking at effect then hunt for evidence that best suits your argument rather than looking at all the evidence.

To play devil's advocate:
Just as valid:
I'm a much simpler person with my analysis - Lose grand final and major draw card, John Aloisi to SFC lost 3k off the average which was over 10k the previous season. Rebuilding back, have Arnie come back to Australia and go to Sydney, lose Ibini to Sydney, lose Wee Mac to Wellington and play like shit with no one able to hit the back of the net, andhave lost 2k off the gate. The 7.5k mark seems to be about what we average as supporters who will follow through the bad times.

Just saying. :angel:
 

Jaundice

Well-Known Member
I'm a much simpler person with my analysis - took 2 games to Canberra lost 3k off the average which was over 10k the previous season. Rebuilding back, take 2 games to Sydney and have lost 2k off the gate. The 7.5k mark seems to be about what we average when we screw the fans over.

Newcastle lost 4k the same year, Adelaide lost 1k, Brisbane lost 4k, Melbourne lost 2k, Sydney lost 4k and Wellington lost 4k.

Was that because of the Canberra move too?
 

Jaundice

Well-Known Member
I think that would also make our situation worse.

The system at the moment is already too much in favour of the rich teams who can spend their total cap plus marquees. It will go further in that direction when clubs start to use their marquee allowance more wisely and buy marquees that fit into their structure (SFC and Melbourne this year) rather than a superstar who can cause as much disruption as benefit (e.g. ADP).

Im not sure I understand what you mean here. Aren't the bigger clubs already starting to wise up on marquees.
The cap would remain in place at the top so we wouldn't see outrageous differences in quality, Its just the minimum spend gets taken down so struggling clubs can put some TV revenue back into their running costs to stay afloat.

A Sydney fc CEO a few years ago posed the same question. This was a club that had Nick Carle on the books @ 700k+ a year. Disgusting really how inflated some wages got to meet minimum spends in a non profitable, financially straining league.

Unfortunately bigger and smaller clubs is just a part of football. Ive yet to see a successful socialist league reach any heights.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Jaundice, this league is very successful. We've had the trophies shared around widely, it's competitive top to bottom and so most games are good contests. You're missing the point that salary floors mean clubs have a responsibility to recruit up to a standard as well as down to a standard. If some clubs pay big whacks for certain players blame the clubs' management, not the system.
 

adz

Moderator
Staff member
The cap would remain in place at the top so we wouldn't see outrageous differences in quality, Its just the minimum spend gets taken down so struggling clubs can put some TV revenue back into their running costs to stay afloat.

Probably a stupid question here, but I didn't realise there was a minimum (other than $50k minimum wage) - do you have links or anything explaining what the rules are around this?
 

VicMariner

Well-Known Member
I think we would be pretty close to the salary floor now and if it was lowered MC might drop the squad further.
We would probably end up at a point where we are just making up the numbers.

I might be mistaken but wasn't there a couple years when the Mariners broke even?
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
Mariners want North Shore fans but will stay in Gosford: Charlesworth
Date
December 4, 2014 - 7:00PM
Sebastian Hassett
Football reporter


Home away from home: Mariners coach Phil Moss and captain John Hutchinson at North Sydney Oval on Thursday. Photo: Ben Rushton
Central Coast Mariners' owner Mike Charlesworth says he wants to keep the club in Gosford for the "next 100 years" but admits they must radically expand their supporter catchment on Sydney's North Shore if they want to survive in the A-League.
In an interview with Fairfax Media on Thursday, Charlesworth was at pains to say he would not shift the Mariners, saying they would play no more than three matches away from Central Coast Stadium.
Many fans remain convinced the club's owner is in the process of surreptitiously moving them south in the hope of becoming Sydney's third A-League club.
But as the Mariners prepare to host their second match at North Sydney Oval in as many seasons on Friday night – this time at home to Melbourne Victory – Charlesworth said he had no intention of making it the club's permanent home.
Advertisement
"It's only one game this season that we've taken to North Sydney Oval but it's something that we need to do from a commercial point of view. We must expand our geographic footprint and our supporter base," Charlesworth said.
"Unfortunately, we're at the bottom of the TV ratings, which affects our commercial value and our appeal to sponsors. We simply need to do something about that. We want to be a bigger club.
"We don't have a commercial model that is sustainable today – we have a population base of 300,000 over a large geographic area and it's very challenging. All we're doing is expanding that footprint. We want to build a new supporter base and it will take a long time."
Charlesworth disagreed the Mariners would try to replicate the dual-region model of NRL side St George Illawarra, a team that purports to represent both Sydney's south-east and Wollongong.
Instead, he said the ideal model belonged to AFL powerhouses Hawthorn, who have taken matches to Tasmania in a decade-long partnership that has provided a massive financial boost for the Hawks.
"They've managed to get the balance right and we think the Hawthorn model could very well for us. It's something that's been embraced by their supporters," he said.
"We want to get our supporters to feel the same way about what we're doing. Perhaps we haven't communicated that very well but we understand that now and we're committed to explaining our vision. We'll be taking a roadshow around the Central Coast to help with that.
"We want to get to a situation whereby people are travelling up the freeway from Sydney to watch games in Gosford and vice-versa. We also want to expand [the supporter base] west and we're putting academies in Bathurst and Mudgee as well."
The English-born businessman, who moved back to his homeland this past year but remains a frequent visitor, claims he wants to keep "10 to 11 matches per season in Gosford".
"That's the same as it was in the first few years in the A-League and then you're factoring in Asian Champions League matches as well. It's a lot of content in an area of 100,000 people [around Gosford]," he said. "The ideal number of home games for any Australian club in any sport is 10 to 11 matches in one location and we're no different.
"We're still 100 per cent committed to playing those matches in Gosford but in order to attract a new and younger supporter base, it means putting some content into a region close by. It's just common sense, especially when 20 per cent of our supporter base already lives there."
It is clear that Charlesworth, who took a controlling 64 per cent stake in the club in March 2013, is fed up with losing money at Gosford and sees either North Sydney or Brookvale Oval – where the Mariners will play Adelaide United in February – as ways to soften the blow.
"We'll analyse the results of those two games from a commercial and strategic point of view before making any decisions," he said. "We had one game last year at North Sydney and that was a relative success commercially. We'll wait until after the Brookvale game before we compare."
Although rumours persist Charlesworth is looking to sell the club, which he denies, he admits he's open to investment.
"We've always wanted more substantial investment but in the past nine years, the only two people to get involved have been myself and Kevin McCabe – two Englishmen," he said.
"Are we actively seeking investment? No. But would we talk to potential investors? Of course. We'd like to share the pain, because, right now, it is painful."
The club has also been criticised for losing touch with the local community but Charlesworth insists it's on the improve.
"In the transition from [foundation coach] Lawrie McKinna, Graham Arnold was very successful on the pitch but the number of community engagement projects dropped significantly," Charlesworth said.
"We've started to reverse that, we're doing more community work under the Phil Moss regime, yet people weren't complaining about this when we were winning.
"We're doing more community work than two years ago, that's for sure. Is it the same level as we were doing under Lawrie McKinna? No, but there's a fine line for professionals who are paid to play football. That's their primary job.
"We need to work harder in the community but I think this perception is a little bit skewed in terms of the so-called 'good old days'."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...-in-gosford-charlesworth-20141204-12091z.html
 

scoober

Well-Known Member
What happens when the league expands to 12 teams and 33 rounds, do we still get 10-11 games in Gosford Mr Charlesworth? Or is he just showing his total short sighted thinking again and not recognising that? Or is that the plan and then allows 5-6 games to "expand our supporter base"?
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
What happens when the league expands to 12 teams and 33 rounds, do we still get 10-11 games in Gosford Mr Charlesworth? Or is he just showing his total short sighted thinking again and not recognising that? Or is that the plan and then allows 5-6 games to "expand our supporter base"?

That's the way I read it - but I would like to cap it at 3 if we add two NSW teams or 4 if we only add 1 NSW team and 1 other team. We should host all NSW games and each non-NSW team at least once.

2 NSW teams

Lets assume a South Coast and SWS team. That would be 15 NSW games where you would think we would host 7 one season and 8 the next. I would want them all in Gosford.

So in the 16 game season we would have
7 NSW games plus
6 non-NSW games (a game each against Bris, City, Adel, Vic, Nix, Perth with one the NYE game, the Nix game on ANZAC day and 4 non-event games).
3 remaining games could be played in Northern Sydney.

In the 17 game season we would have
8 NSW games plus
6 non-NSW games (a game each against Bris, City, Adel, Vic, Nix, Perth with one the NYE game, the Nix game on ANZAC day and 4 non-event games).
3 remaining games could be played in Northern Sydney.

1 NSW team and 1 non-NSW team

If only one NSW team is added then we would host 6 NSW games each season. I would want them all in Gosford.

So in the 16 game season we would have
6 NSW games plus
7 non-NSW games (a game each against Bris, City, Adel, Vic, Nix, Perth and the other non NSW team with one the NYE game, the Nix game on ANZAC day and 5 non-event games.)
3 remaining games could be played in Northern Sydney.

In the 17 game season we would have
6 NSW games plus
7 non-NSW games (a game each against Bris, City, Adel, Vic, Nix, Perth with one the NYE game, the Nix game on ANZAC day) and 5 non-event games.
4 remaining games could be played in Northern Sydney.

The trick then is to 'invent events' for non-NSW, non NYE, non ANZAC day games.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
From Bruce's interview the other day, IIRC he floated that the we'll have a certain number of games at home but that the league might change quite a lot and that this might open some doors.

From that I'll say that I'm taking his comments to mean that instead of "at least" 10-11 games at home they mean to play "at most" 10-11 games.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
From Bruce's interview the other day, IIRC he floated that the we'll have a certain number of games at home but that the league might change quite a lot and that this might open some doors.

From that I'll say that I'm taking his comments to mean that instead of "at least" 10-11 games at home they mean to play "at most" 10-11 games.

Yes - that's what I fear and the way I read Sebs' article. That said if we can 'invent events' so that each game has a marketable reason to turn up we may move it higher to 13 - 14 games.
 

gull

Well-Known Member
Wanna see some interesting* stats about our crowds so far?

Newcastle R1 - our long term average against them at home is 10,369. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 10,281. We drew 10,443.
Wellington R2 - our long term average against them at home is 8,210. Take out the NYE game we had and that drops slightly to 7,845. We drew 7,237.
Perth R5 - our long term average against them at home is 9,479. But we've had a bunch of New Year's Eve games against them. Take those out and we average 7,855. We drew 6,391.
Adelaide R7 - our long term average against them at home is 8,540. We drew 6,404.

All up, our long term averages suggest we ought to be averaging 8,630. We drew 7,619. We're down about 12% on our average, so we're not miles off the pace. It's not like we would expect to have drawn over 10k on average for these four games.

Even still, carried across the season we're looking at about 8k average rather than a 9k average if we shed 12% across the board. It's a thinner year anyway with only one visit from each of Newcastle, Sydney and Wanderers.

That's about 13k fewer tickets sold across the season than we might have expected, about 27k fewer than last year.

What really hurts is having so many Sunday games. Sundays we average about 8,705 compared to 9,819 on Saturdays. That's a big deal.

Fridays suck anyway, and will suck even harder with SBS against the gate, but an average of 8,678 pre-SBS and 5,967 post SBS might just be something we seek to offset through better sponsorship thanks to bigger exposure. Sorting out some sort of party theme to get the young folks out would be a good idea too, methinks, and some sort of gig post-match might be fun? Who knows.

But it's not like the bottom has fallen out of the club all of a sudden. We're having an off-year, no doubt, but a bit of form and a good holiday period could perk it right back up again.

*...in the eye of the beholder and all that.

Yep it's too early to call our crowds this year below average, particularly after a series of Sunday games.

By interesting to see the average at the end of the season. We can't compare anything until then.
 

gull

Well-Known Member
Mariners want North Shore fans but will stay in Gosford: Charlesworth
Date
December 4, 2014 - 7:00PM
Sebastian Hassett
Football reporter


Home away from home: Mariners coach Phil Moss and captain John Hutchinson at North Sydney Oval on Thursday. Photo: Ben Rushton
Central Coast Mariners' owner Mike Charlesworth says he wants to keep the club in Gosford for the "next 100 years" but admits they must radically expand their supporter catchment on Sydney's North Shore if they want to survive in the A-League.
In an interview with Fairfax Media on Thursday, Charlesworth was at pains to say he would not shift the Mariners, saying they would play no more than three matches away from Central Coast Stadium.
Many fans remain convinced the club's owner is in the process of surreptitiously moving them south in the hope of becoming Sydney's third A-League club.
But as the Mariners prepare to host their second match at North Sydney Oval in as many seasons on Friday night – this time at home to Melbourne Victory – Charlesworth said he had no intention of making it the club's permanent home.
Advertisement
"It's only one game this season that we've taken to North Sydney Oval but it's something that we need to do from a commercial point of view. We must expand our geographic footprint and our supporter base," Charlesworth said.
"Unfortunately, we're at the bottom of the TV ratings, which affects our commercial value and our appeal to sponsors. We simply need to do something about that. We want to be a bigger club.
"We don't have a commercial model that is sustainable today – we have a population base of 300,000 over a large geographic area and it's very challenging. All we're doing is expanding that footprint. We want to build a new supporter base and it will take a long time."
Charlesworth disagreed the Mariners would try to replicate the dual-region model of NRL side St George Illawarra, a team that purports to represent both Sydney's south-east and Wollongong.
Instead, he said the ideal model belonged to AFL powerhouses Hawthorn, who have taken matches to Tasmania in a decade-long partnership that has provided a massive financial boost for the Hawks.
"They've managed to get the balance right and we think the Hawthorn model could very well for us. It's something that's been embraced by their supporters," he said.
"We want to get our supporters to feel the same way about what we're doing. Perhaps we haven't communicated that very well but we understand that now and we're committed to explaining our vision. We'll be taking a roadshow around the Central Coast to help with that.
"We want to get to a situation whereby people are travelling up the freeway from Sydney to watch games in Gosford and vice-versa. We also want to expand [the supporter base] west and we're putting academies in Bathurst and Mudgee as well."
The English-born businessman, who moved back to his homeland this past year but remains a frequent visitor, claims he wants to keep "10 to 11 matches per season in Gosford".
"That's the same as it was in the first few years in the A-League and then you're factoring in Asian Champions League matches as well. It's a lot of content in an area of 100,000 people [around Gosford]," he said. "The ideal number of home games for any Australian club in any sport is 10 to 11 matches in one location and we're no different.
"We're still 100 per cent committed to playing those matches in Gosford but in order to attract a new and younger supporter base, it means putting some content into a region close by. It's just common sense, especially when 20 per cent of our supporter base already lives there."
It is clear that Charlesworth, who took a controlling 64 per cent stake in the club in March 2013, is fed up with losing money at Gosford and sees either North Sydney or Brookvale Oval – where the Mariners will play Adelaide United in February – as ways to soften the blow.
"We'll analyse the results of those two games from a commercial and strategic point of view before making any decisions," he said. "We had one game last year at North Sydney and that was a relative success commercially. We'll wait until after the Brookvale game before we compare."
Although rumours persist Charlesworth is looking to sell the club, which he denies, he admits he's open to investment.
"We've always wanted more substantial investment but in the past nine years, the only two people to get involved have been myself and Kevin McCabe – two Englishmen," he said.
"Are we actively seeking investment? No. But would we talk to potential investors? Of course. We'd like to share the pain, because, right now, it is painful."
The club has also been criticised for losing touch with the local community but Charlesworth insists it's on the improve.
"In the transition from [foundation coach] Lawrie McKinna, Graham Arnold was very successful on the pitch but the number of community engagement projects dropped significantly," Charlesworth said.
"We've started to reverse that, we're doing more community work under the Phil Moss regime, yet people weren't complaining about this when we were winning.
"We're doing more community work than two years ago, that's for sure. Is it the same level as we were doing under Lawrie McKinna? No, but there's a fine line for professionals who are paid to play football. That's their primary job.
"We need to work harder in the community but I think this perception is a little bit skewed in terms of the so-called 'good old days'."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...-in-gosford-charlesworth-20141204-12091z.html

He contradicts his own comments in the world game article re the number of games to be moved away.

Maybe if the owner could put across a consistent message we wouldn't need to speculate on his motives.

I don't think he realises the damage done this week...it's enormous.
 

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