Rd 11 Drive Bys V Mariners

[Roy Law]

BG: I agree the line up can easily slip into 4-2-3-1 or even 4-3-3. I believe we should have the onfield ability to do that; we used to defend with a 4-3-3 when we played the diamond.
When defending I see the wide players and Caceres dropping deep to make a four man line in front of the back four with Flores doing what Amini used to – almost nothing, just positioning himself high to intercept passes from the oppo’s defence –Amini used to often steal the ball in this way – or just being available to get the attack moving. I don’t want him doing that awful energy-sapping trailing back and forth.
In attack, yes, I see him surrounded with bright, enthusiastic young things buzzing around. Even against the Wanderers it was the young kids who gave it a go – Roux, Fitzgerald, Duke; only the wonderfully consistent Rose is standing up as one of the oldies, with good cameos from Sterj. We are getting very little from Hutch, McBreen and even Monty – and Arnie used to rely on, and trust, those veterans as much as he gave opportunity to youth.
The season isn’t over, true, and the next three games are winnable, but sitting sixth on the table tells me a bloody big warning light is flashing; and tells me we aren’t going to be anywhere near the trophies come the end of the year unless things change. And I am not used to that!
What sparked the thought that Sains could play the Hutch role is that Hutch is doing nothing with it; we are effectively playing with ten men. Provided ball control is good, and Sainsbury’s is first class, we can get so much more oomph from this position with someone more dynamic. Sains, even now, is looking to carry the ball forward and make forward runs; against Sydney he made a great run into the penalty area – when was the last time you saw Hutch go forward, or create from deep? And when did Hutch ever make a saving tackle in the penalty area?
Hutch is a wonderful club servant, probably the best we have had but if he can no longer contribute we cannot, from sixth on the ladder, be too sentimental.
Anyway, football is about opinions, and I am glad I have opened a discussion on our great football club.
I am having difficulty posting as my laptop is playing up so may not be posting for a few days (some of you may be happy about that. LOL)
And as I am posting on Christmas Day – I do have a life, honestly – may I wish all the posters on here a very merry Christmas and a very enjoyable New Year. Love youse all.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

I liked your post Roy, not because I agree with all of it, but because I really appreciate your thoughts and insight. Learn a lot more from differing opinion - cheers FP



I definitely agree that we need more pace, movement, energy and confidence. So more youth should help with at least 3 of those...
Duke, Caceres and Bernie seem the best bets to me... but really I also think the most important thing to change is our system, more than our players.
And if we keep just shuffling a stacked deck, all we'll likely do is lose confidence and destroy harmony.

When it comes to Moss, Bikini and others are right. It's a big ask, (though thats the job) but choices such as throwing away the stability Hutch offers would be a very hard decision for him. Personally, I'm not convinced yet it would ultimately prove the right one, but nor the wrong one, as we do clearly need change, and I agree with others, that two DM's are hurting us because of how effectively we are being pressured and shut down. And our defence seems very unlikely to settle to me until we can hold the ball a lot better... and we could hold the ball better, if we had a couple more skilful ball players on the park...

That said, in specific regard to our DM's, I don't think we should blame Hutch and Monty as they are not really playing bad, not in isolation, and at the very least they have been no worse than most others, but DM's the world over cop a pasting when teams look flat, and we want to point fingers the truth is that Trent was the player who gave the ball away most poorly last game. But that doesn't help. And it doesn't surprise. Even Weemac is coughing up the ball far more than we are used too, because our system has been worked out. We are being pressured and so coughing up possession far too often to become settled and get into our best rhythms, so we are very patchy. Capable of great football, and of great calamity. This must obviously change if we hope to exert any of the dominance we have had in the recent seasons. GA was about to be tested, but now Mossy has to do it. And with our losses, GA's shadow, a cash strapped club and the big calls likely required... really even if we have a bad season, we still probably couldn't fairly hang the blame at Moss's door. But I still think it's reasonable to hope we can make some decent progress...

I too would like to see Anderson come back in. Siep hasn't been bad, in fact he's probably been the most consistent of our defenders tbf, but Anderson with time will clearly be a better player - so we should invest. I think he was maybe a little scape goated in our early struggles - targeted by opposition and badly coughing up possession... But now it's proven the problem is not centred around him. It's how teams are playing us strategically, and we haven't solved it yet.

Imho, though mid season changes are a legitimate concern, I don't think we need to fear changing our system, because just as, if it aint... broke don't fix it...
if it's broke... no real risk in trying a change.

 

[bikinigirl]

. FP, i think the issue with the DMs at the moment is that they are our sole source for distribution in transition (deliberately exaggerated for effect)

. 'playing out from the back' comes through the DMs (starting with hutch dropping deep to receive the ball). previously we had maty getting the ball quickly and accurately to anyone, anywhere on the pitch. the backs were making themselves immediately available in advanced positions and if maty couldn't get the ball to them quickly big pat was hitting them cross-field

. little things in many areas of our play are having a cumulative effect (because we are not all bad) ... relying on 'veterans' for our traditionally quick transitions could be one of those little things that is not quite working for us. if the solution was easy, it'd be nailed down by now

 

[sydmariner]

BG: I agree the line up can easily slip into 4-2-3-1 or even 4-3-3. I believe we should have the onfield ability to do that; we used to defend with a 4-3-3 when we played the diamond.
When defending I see the wide players and Caceres dropping deep to make a four man line in front of the back four with Flores doing what Amini used to – almost nothing, just positioning himself high to intercept passes from the oppo’s defence –Amini used to often steal the ball in this way – or just being available to get the attack moving. I don’t want him doing that awful energy-sapping trailing back and forth.
In attack, yes, I see him surrounded with bright, enthusiastic young things buzzing around. Even against the Wanderers it was the young kids who gave it a go – Roux, Fitzgerald, Duke; only the wonderfully consistent Rose is standing up as one of the oldies, with good cameos from Sterj. We are getting very little from Hutch, McBreen and even Monty – and Arnie used to rely on, and trust, those veterans as much as he gave opportunity to youth.
The season isn’t over, true, and the next three games are winnable, but sitting sixth on the table tells me a bloody big warning light is flashing; and tells me we aren’t going to be anywhere near the trophies come the end of the year unless things change. And I am not used to that!
What sparked the thought that Sains could play the Hutch role is that Hutch is doing nothing with it; we are effectively playing with ten men. Provided ball control is good, and Sainsbury’s is first class, we can get so much more oomph from this position with someone more dynamic. Sains, even now, is looking to carry the ball forward and make forward runs; against Sydney he made a great run into the penalty area – when was the last time you saw Hutch go forward, or create from deep? And when did Hutch ever make a saving tackle in the penalty area?
Hutch is a wonderful club servant, probably the best we have had but if he can no longer contribute we cannot, from sixth on the ladder, be too sentimental.
Anyway, football is about opinions, and I am glad I have opened a discussion on our great football club.
I am having difficulty posting as my laptop is playing up so may not be posting for a few days (some of you may be happy about that. LOL)
And as I am posting on Christmas Day – I do have a life, honestly – may I wish all the posters on here a very merry Christmas and a very enjoyable New Year. Love youse all.

If we beat glory on NYE it will

 

[Wombat]

. FP, i think the issue with the DMs at the moment is that they are our sole source for distribution in transition (deliberately exaggerated for effect)

. 'playing out from the back' comes through the DMs (starting with hutch dropping deep to receive the ball). previously we had maty getting the ball quickly and accurately to anyone, anywhere on the pitch. the backs were making themselves immediately available in advanced positions and if maty couldn't get the ball to them quickly big pat was hitting them cross-field

. little things in many areas of our play are having a cumulative effect (because we are not all bad) ... relying on 'veterans' for our traditionally quick transitions could be one of those little things that is not quite working for us. if the solution was easy, it'd be nailed down by now

Very astute reading of the situation BG.

 

[Wombat]

I liked your post Roy, not because I agree with all of it, but because I really appreciate your thoughts and insight. Learn a lot more from differing opinion - cheers FP



I definitely agree that we need more pace, movement, energy and confidence. So more youth should help with at least 3 of those...
Duke, Caceres and Bernie seem the best bets to me... but really I also think the most important thing to change is our system, more than our players.
And if we keep just shuffling a stacked deck, all we'll likely do is lose confidence and destroy harmony.

When it comes to Moss, Bikini and others are right. It's a big ask, (though thats the job) but choices such as throwing away the stability Hutch offers would be a very hard decision for him. Personally, I'm not convinced yet it would ultimately prove the right one, but nor the wrong one, as we do clearly need change, and I agree with others, that two DM's are hurting us because of how effectively we are being pressured and shut down. And our defence seems very unlikely to settle to me until we can hold the ball a lot better... and we could hold the ball better, if we had a couple more skilful ball players on the park...

That said, in specific regard to our DM's, I don't think we should blame Hutch and Monty as they are not really playing bad, not in isolation, and at the very least they have been no worse than most others, but DM's the world over cop a pasting when teams look flat, and we want to point fingers the truth is that Trent was the player who gave the ball away most poorly last game. But that doesn't help. And it doesn't surprise. Even Weemac is coughing up the ball far more than we are used too, because our system has been worked out. We are being pressured and so coughing up possession far too often to become settled and get into our best rhythms, so we are very patchy. Capable of great football, and of great calamity. This must obviously change if we hope to exert any of the dominance we have had in the recent seasons. GA was about to be tested, but now Mossy has to do it. And with our losses, GA's shadow, a cash strapped club and the big calls likely required... really even if we have a bad season, we still probably couldn't fairly hang the blame at Moss's door. But I still think it's reasonable to hope we can make some decent progress...

I too would like to see Anderson come back in. Siep hasn't been bad, in fact he's probably been the most consistent of our defenders tbf, but Anderson with time will clearly be a better player - so we should invest. I think he was maybe a little scape goated in our early struggles - targeted by opposition and badly coughing up possession... But now it's proven the problem is not centred around him. It's how teams are playing us strategically, and we haven't solved it yet.

Imho, though mid season changes are a legitimate concern, I don't think we need to fear changing our system, because just as, if it aint... broke don't fix it...
if it's broke... no real risk in trying a change.

Fench sitting a bit FP.

Arnie was lucky to leave when he did as he would be in exactly the same boat as Mossy right now.
We have been gash for almost every game (I think we have been decent in 3).....the back four have been average but its hard to replace the best defender the HAL has ever had...also lets not forget than Dutchy covered up some of our flaws by consistently scoring match winning goals for us.
This year the midfield has been the main problem together with poor finishing in the final third....but for me from game 2 onwards it has been glaringly obvious that our structure is terribly flawed.
We still have a very good squad, capable of beating anyone but we are fighting our opponents with one hand tied behind our backs.

 

[ballantyne]

I wouldn't be changing the system right now, with 3 very winnable games coming up. I think Mossy needs 7 to 9 points from these 3 games, giving the players a valuable confidence boost. 5 or less and it's time for radical change.
Distribution in transition is our big problem: Reddy a shadow of Ryan in this respect and we are consistently forced to the wings rather than using them, as Wanderers did for their second goal. If we can't attack through the middle the season is doomed.
Matt Simon the youth team needs you and you need it. McBreen should be our impact sub with Duke starting.

 

[Gratis]

I'm liking this talk a lot.

I'm all for changing the system. I'd be ok with a weak showing this season if we're building to something.

the very best we're aiming to build to now is something near the 4231 team of last year. it almost certainly won't happen without the players for it and even if we got there it wouldn't be nearly as effective.
the way I see it is that, best case scenario, we get ourselves back to the skill, timing and precision of last year with the players we now have (seems unlikely). even if we did it wouldn't produce the same results considering many teams have worked out how to play effectively against the mariners 4231 way.

there seems little point persevering with perfecting a system that won't work as well as it did in the past.

with the number of teams that crush the 4231 system now even playing it well would get us maybe only 4th or 5th on the ladder, and more are learning how to do it.

time for a change. a change based on Mossy's philosophies and the players available. what to is something I'm not knowledgeable enough to say. I'm intrigued by this 4141 idea however.

at this rate I'm not confident we're going to win the next 3 games which are theoretically winnable. even less confident about the rest of the season.

why stutter to a halt-
I'd rather lose games trying something new and starting a new era of mariners dominance than work to remain a shadow of past mariners glory

 

[midfielder]

There is an old saying that goes something like this..... """Cometh the hour Cometh the man"""

We have never lost so much quality in one hit as we did last year.... and the replacements are not in the same class as those who have left...

Meaning Mossy has the following to deal with ... a much weaker side, a new owner who me thinks is far more demanding especially on a new coach than the old management, our usual off the field dramas Arnie pulled the side together over pay / super etc ... today Mossy is dealing with the NSO or not ....

He needs space and time ... however he also needs to show he has the smarts and man management to direct and lead the squad and maybe mould it into something different ...

Time will tell if he is up to it ... I agree with most who are saying give him time .... but show us something as well .. its not only about winning but also heading in the right direction...

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Fench sitting a bit FP.

I never Fench sit.

I do think we need better transitions. I just also wouldn't be surprised if we fell apart without Hutch on the field...

So just ignore me. I'll be over here dividing my dozen into half and six.

 

[bikinigirl]

So just ignore me. I'll be over here dividing my dozen into half and six.

. no, no ... i think you may have found the solution ... a dozen

. we always seem to be (at least) one player short ... our problems could be solved!

 

[style_cafe]

The transitions are a big problem.
With sides pressing us in our back third the transitions need to be quick & sharp to catch them on the counter attack.
We need to be able to show opponents that they can`t do that to us by punishing them at the other end.
We have the players in Duke & McBreen, but not getting the ball to them quickly is putting us under more pressure.
Hutcho is the main offender. When was the last time he made a decisive penetrating pass?
Sure he`s a great link man, that makes many "nothing" passes, but when your sitting in 6th spot & the other teams have your measure something needs to change.

 

[Wombat]

I never Fench sit.

I do think we need better transitions. I just also wouldn't be surprised if we fell apart without Hutch on the field...

So just ignore me. I'll be over here dividing my dozen into half and six.

I don't ever remember us struggling when Hutcho was suspended...not once.

We are already falling apart. Hutcho holds the ball quite well but it is his amazing habit of doing nothing with it apart from going backwards that kills us.

Hutch is a good leader and has been a brilliant servant for the club but he needs to lead from the bench now.
If we could have kept Bozanic to play in his spot we would currently be in the top 3.

 

[style_cafe]

I don't ever remember us struggling when Hutcho was suspended...not once.

We are already falling apart. Hutcho holds the ball quite well but it is his amazing habit of doing nothing with it apart from going backwards that kills us.

Hutch is a good leader and has been a brilliant servant for the club but he needs to lead from the bench now.
If we could have kept Bozanic to play in his spot we would currently be in the top 3.

Club Captain for sure but necessarily team Captain