More relocation chat/brawling

[bikinigirl]

Sad to say, but to me MC is not the solution but instead seems to be rapidly becoming part of the problem. While he has been hailed as the club's saviour he has gone to water after facing a loss in his first year of ownership.

. my understanding is charlesworth has been involved financially for a number of years already ... but his stake has changed (earlier this year)

. so the question may be correct about due diligence (which may indicate more passion than business sense) ... or perhaps the 'real' situation was kept from him - he saw easy fixes that were not enough ... or more drastic measures were always part of the plan - who knows?

. regardless he hasn't wasted much time ... but he also hasn't consulted with his 'customers'

. we also need to remember that mike hasn't spent much time on the coast (or in this country?) ... maybe he wants more games at nso because it is closer to his eastern suburbs home ... or because his marketing and commercial manager with ties to the northern beaches (but who apparently has failed to engage with the coast) thinks it is a good idea ... again nobody knows - and they aren't sharing - it is still the threats and lack of information that are scaring people

 

[adz]

Threats of moving are one thing, but they have accompanied with attacks on the people of the Coast for not attending games, and now the dedicated fans who read and post on this forum - although that was an unconfirmed off-hand remark about junk on some fan, blog, thing. We've been here since day one. Most people who contribute have been around the club since day one or very early. If he wants to brush off comments on here from hardcore advocates of his company I mean football club as "junk" then good on him.

 

[bikinigirl]

No, you misunderstand, I meant no more from me. But here goes.

Yes BG, I do stir but I have to, to shake you lot up.

Maybe if you know where I am coming from you may understand.

Most here see the problem as keeping the CCM on the Coast (cap C). I see the worry as keeping the CCM, full stop. I do not believe CCM will exist away from the Coast.

There have been 3 clubs in my life that I have seen disappear. Believe me, it hurts every time, I do not want it to happen again.

I do not see MC as a Knight in shining armor, but I do see him as the best chance we have and will support him.

OK, where I come from.

I was a third gen Bears supporter. I used to sit in the rain with my father and grandfather week in and week out, year after year (from the 1950's, (yeh that ancient)), always hoping. Nobody I sat with ever believed the Bears could disappear. They were a foundation club, they were iconic and were part of what made rugby league, rugby league.

They went and in the worst possible way, they were combined with the hated rivals and made a joke.

This is one reason why I get fed up when people here compare our current position with the Northern Eagles. No one is suggesting we combine with Newcastle and play out of Wollongong, so please do not represent the situation.

CCM is not as bullet proof as many here seem to imagine.

That period of my life showed me the importance of negativity and knocking. The biggest knockers of the Bears were their own supporters. The negativity built and became self fulfilling.

I am not against constructive criticism, in fact the opposite, I am in favour, without it, nothing gets discussed. I am against a lot of the crap (close to abuse) dished out to MC in his efforts in making the club viable. I find it annoying and probably makes my responses stronger than they should (like much of the criticism that gets to me).

I saw a lot of this problem when PT called for payment of the next season memberships before the current season was over in a previous forum. I saw those discussions revert to doom and gloom negativity that had a great detrimental effect on memberships and on the forum.

I want to keep supporting the club in Gosford and strongly believe that the club, if it survives, will stay in Gosford. I get extremely frustrated with people that see NS Oval as a threat. Take it from someone who has spent half his life there, it is not, and never will be. However it can be used as a tactical piece in a greater strategy.

To FP, sorry for the sarcasm, but really, if someone loves their team they now how to get to a game. Yes I hear the same stuff, but it is usually from people who cannot be bothered to pull their finger out and no amount of advertising will shift them. I will not withdraw the shot about the money, it stands.

And I do not think that someone who has made a lot of money is the font of all wisdom, but many here show a distinct lack of wisdom in comparison . And someone who has put his money where his mouth is deserves to call the shots.

I support MC because I can see where he is coming from and agree their is a market to be tapped on the North Shore having been involved with a club in the district and seen the support that exists at that level but needs a push.

Ok, obviously by what has happened here it has not been sold well. Hopefully some of the obvious talking with Fish can help that. I hope to see something eventuate, in public, from those talks that will get all heading in the same direction. It is to the benefit of those that want: to make money from the Club, to see the club win, to see the club be successful, to see the club survive, to see the club boost their ego (supporter or owner).

One final dig. Stop being so bloody precious about "your" team it belongs to more people than those that are lucky enough to live on the Coast.

This is definitely all from me. I think I have said all I have to say. Time to sit back and enjoy the chaos.

ps Didn't the size of the crowd at the game between the champions and the Smurfs scare the shit out of others as it did me and start you thinking that some serious measures were called for?

Final from me, please feel free to carry on.

. nice post

. you are also coming at the central coast beagles debacle from a different perspective to most too so bear that in mind. i would be interested to know how 'precious' you were about 'your' bears relocating to gosford (the 'merger' with manly is obviously something many cannot comprehend or cannot care about)

. i don't follow the league so i may be incorrect, but from a coast point of view ... it went something like this:

• the coast was promised a team (even if relocated) ... they even had a ground built for them
• it then became half a team (where at least half weren't interested in being on the coast)
• resentment grew (games and attendances dropped) until everything fell apart ... and that happened quite quickly

. people are seeing far too many similarities to what is reportedly happening with the mariners ... from their own perspective. the game against sydney is an example based on some of the feedback given. so your point is valid and you are willing to make certain commitments and compromises ... many others are not - financially or emotionally

. a couple of things more that i think deserve special mention:

That period of my life showed me the importance of negativity and knocking. The biggest knockers of the Bears were their own supporters. The negativity built and became self fulfilling.

. but why was it self-fulfilling? because somebody didn't listen to those that were 'invetsed' in the club and needed for survival - ie. the fans? if fans said they would not travel to gosford to watch the bears or would not watch the beagles if there was a merger ... you can't blame the fans, that is their perogative ... and it would seem warnings were given

. as it shows that charlesworth can do and say as he pleases ... but he also can't be surprised if people follow through with what they are saying now - you can't say they are being precious or petty if they are simply being honest. i am being honest in saying i am not likely to go to north sydney to watch another game - i simply didn't enjoy it enough to want to return and i can't honestly say i provided the same level of support i would have had the boys played at gosford

I am not against constructive criticism, in fact the opposite, I am in favour, without it, nothing gets discussed. I am against a lot of the crap (close to abuse) dished out to MC in his efforts in making the club viable. I find it annoying and probably makes my responses stronger than they should (like much of the criticism that gets to me).

. the problem is people aren't just dishing out crap or abuse ... we are asking questions. and we have seen nothing from you, charlesworth or anybody else that indicates any move (partial or permanent or a one off game) makes the club more viable. we are seeing pain but no gain. the warning is ... we can't see how more pain can be the answer

. i may also go so far as to say that while there may be (or may have been) a market on the north shore ... the way things have been handled may have already ruined charlesworth's business model (whether the team is based on the coast or north shore). every fan has different motivations and i don't see too many of them supporting charlesworth at the moment

. oh and for the record i jumped at the chance to pay early when turnbull came asking

 

[nebakke]

Threats of moving are one thing, but they have accompanied with attacks on the people of the Coast for not attending games, and now the dedicated fans who read and post on this forum - although that was an unconfirmed off-hand remark about junk on some fan, blog, thing. We've been here since day one. Most people who contribute have been around the club since day one or very early. If he wants to brush off comments on here from hardcore advocates of his company I mean football club as "junk" then good on him.

You consider my information "unconfirmed" adz? I'm deeply hurt!

But, it's probably worth reiterating that this was a comment from the coach driver, not exactly MC

 

[adz]

You consider my information "unconfirmed" adz? I'm deeply hurt!

But, it's probably worth reiterating that this was a comment from the coach driver, not exactly MC

And the bus driver doesn't speak on behalf of the club?

 

[Ancient Mariner]

. i would be interested to know how 'precious' you were about 'your' bears relocating to gosford (the 'merger' with manly is obviously something many cannot comprehend or cannot care about)

I was quite happy for the Bears to move to Gosford, and would have happily followed. Not happy with the merger and cut all ties withRL. Still have not watched a game.
The point I was making was when people compared the Bears relocating to Gosford being a disaster, the disaster was the merger, equivalent of a merger with Jets.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

.

. but why was it self-fulfilling? because somebody didn't listen to those that were 'invetsed' in the club and needed for survival - ie. the fans? if fans said they would not travel to gosford to watch the bears or would not watch the beagles if there was a merger ... you can't blame the fans, that is their perogative ... and it would seem warnings were given

The comment about the knocking becoming self fulfulling was not at that time. It was many years earlier when the group I used to sit with just continually knocking the team, the club and the administration and you could see the supporters in our area and new supporters losing interest and just drifting away.
This was in the days before online forums, facebook and the like when I fear this effect can be massively amplified. Especially when leaks or partial information gets spread so quickly.
The effect it can have scares me and is probably the reason I over react.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

.
we are seeing pain but no gain. the warning is ... we can't see how more pain can be the answer

I see very little pain to be had, and most of it self inflicted has come from the predictions of doom and gloom here which is the reason for my statement that it becomes self fulfilling.

There were similar outpourings of grief a few years ago at the Community game at Canberra when the club was forming lnks with that association.

I think it was clear to you, and any who attended NSO for the first time, that NSO is just not a suitable ground for football and never will be for more than just the odd novelty game.

End of problem, no need for all the angst and grief, time to move on.

 

[dibo]

No, it's not time to move on.

You may feel it's all wrapped up but it's not.

It has not been established that, even in spite of the simple fact that we have record memberships, average crowds higher than last year (with most of our bigger games ahead of us), more sponsors than last year and massively increased TV money, there is a problem that requires drastic action.

It further hasn't been established that the one and only solution to this problem is moving a few games to North Sydney. There's no discussion of any other strategy, just occasional veiled references to being disappointed with the level of support on the coast (but no indication of what the support would have to be to prevent games moving - obviously a 10k threshold isn't enough because we're at that and the chatter continues).

There's also sufficient lack of clarity around the communications coming out of the club (I'd argue they're verging on schizophrenic - every now and again we hear voices muttering away but the message is never clear).

If the club would level with us, that would be appreciated. At the moment, with some very committed members vowing to not renew while this bullshit continues, our biggest problem is the club itself. *They* are the ones creating a sense of crisis, and the sense may become real if they don't sort their shit out.

 

[adz]

Will moving a few games to North Sydney mean next year's Christmas party is a massive hit instead of an embarrassing disaster?

I think the issue lies elsewhere and if the club believes they are doing absolutely everything to bring people in, and have hit the "glass ceiling" (I don't really understand that term but I guess they mean the maximum potential to grow the customer base) as some are suggesting, they're having a laugh.

 

[adz]

I also don't see any doom and gloom comments coming from here, but a lot of questions about what the club is doing to fix things. The doom and gloom stuff is coming from the Mariners - telling us they lost $1m/year and can't afford to have the Mariners play all their home games on the Coast.

All we want to know now is what they are doing about it.

 

[bikinigirl]

The point I was making was when people compared the Bears relocating to Gosford being a disaster, the disaster was the merger, equivalent of a merger with Jets.

. but for most coasties ... who had probably supported neither team previously ... the disaster was losing the team from the coast - partly, then fully (which is the current fear - again)

There were similar outpourings of grief a few years ago at the Community game at Canberra when the club was forming lnks with that association.

. i don't think it was a community round in canberra and there was certainly more than one game ... there was also a lot of talk about lack of funds, growing the supporter base and inevitably relocation. communication from the club was poor

. officially we couldn't play at gosford because of pitch rejuvenation works which, on our return, proved to be ... well, bullshit really

. from memory it took us away from home for two months, killed momentum and killed belief in the club for many already disillusioned (some by the beagles situation). again people are seeing a correlation to the current situation

I think it was clear to you, and any who attended NSO for the first time, that NSO is just not a suitable ground for football and never will be for more than just the odd novelty game.

. if that is the case why are there still reports of more games there next year (requests that exceed the FFAs willingness ... so far). these reports have not been denied either

 

[Phish Phart]

No, it's not time to move on.

..........

There's also sufficient lack of clarity around the communications coming out of the club (I'd argue they're verging on schizophrenic - every now and again we hear voices muttering away but the message is never clear).

If the club would level with us, that would be appreciated. At the moment, with some very committed members vowing to not renew while this bullshit continues, our biggest problem is the club itself. *They* are the ones creating a sense of crisis, and the sense may become real if they don't sort their shit out.

Quite so Dibo .......

However, the first thing everyone here should do is to stop referring to themselves as "members". To me "membership" of any organisation involves more than handing over a lump sum of money for a year's subscription/season ticket with a few trinkets thrown in. I certainly wouldn't call myself a member of a club that doesn't offer me a say in what the club is doing; and if the club is not doing what I consider right there must be a recognised entitlement/structure for me to actively work for change if I so desire.

I understand that MC"saved" the club earlier this year. I'm not sure what would have happened if he hadn't taken over. However, since the takeover I don't believe anything has been done or put in the public domain by the Mariners which hasn't received his imprimatur. So the buck for any real or perceived threats to the Mariners future must stop with him.

 

[Wombat]

I was quite happy for the Bears to move to Gosford, and would have happily followed. Not happy with the merger and cut all ties withRL. Still have not watched a game.
The point I was making was when people compared the Bears relocating to Gosford being a disaster, the disaster was the merger, equivalent of a merger with Jets.

Fair point......but stupid decisions like that were made by people with no feeling for the Bears or it's supporters.

Cold hearted money men.....I'm hoping MC is not one of those.

 

[adz]

Quite so Dibo .......

However, the first thing everyone here should do is to stop referring to themselves as "members". To me "membership" of any organisation involves more than handing over a lump sum of money for a year's subscription/season ticket with a few trinkets thrown in. I certainly wouldn't call myself a member of a club that doesn't offer me a say in what the club is doing; and if the club is not doing what I consider right there must be a recognised entitlement/structure for me to actively work for change if I so desire.

I understand that MC"saved" the club earlier this year. I'm not sure what would have happened if he hadn't taken over. However, since the takeover I don't believe anything has been done or put in the public domain by the Mariners which hasn't received his imprimatur. So the buck for any real or perceived threats to the Mariners future must stop with him.

What exactly do you think we could do differently if it was structured more like you want? People always bring this point up and sorry but I think it's a load of crap. Just go back to North Sydney Bears as an example.

http://www.northsydneybears.com.au/abo-history.html

Due to their insolvency, the North Sydney club were not even considered for the NRL's inclusion criteria. After some deliberation and the rights of the members of the football club handed over to avoid an embarrassing 'NO' vote on the merger question, and the signing of most of the Bears younger brigade and few from the senior team, the name Northern Eagles was born.

Fat lot of good it did Norths, firstly they were in the shit financially, then they had their voting rights taken away anyway...

 

[VicMariner]

Bundesliga style 51% fan ownership FTW..........except there is no where near enough of us to make it work.

 

[priorpeter]

Cold hearted money men.....I'm hoping MC is not one of those.

Yeah... hope's about all you have on that one.

 

[Roy Law]

Fair point......but stupid decisions like that were made by people with no feeling for the Bears or it's supporters.

Cold hearted money men.....I'm hoping MC is not one of those.

I find it hard to think any cold hearted business man would buy the Mariners. Where is the huge profit to be made? It would be a miracle if it ran at break even.
Is Mr Charlesworth really going to get a return on his investment of bailing out the Mariners?
What I don't like is the comments about losing $1m a season; I am sure MC said this when he took over and appears to be still saying it even after the new TV deal means clubs have more money.
If he means the running costs before transfer fees received, ad hoc sponsorship etc, fair enough, but an airy comment about a $1m doesn't really mean much at all.
I am quite happy if he wants the club to be run more like a business but he shouldn't be surprised at it losing money

 

[true believer]

as AM has been stating . we don't have a side without MC .
his communication skills may not be cutting the mustard.so maybe the time has to be taken to
ask him ,"what can we do to keep our side on the coast. " and " how can we help you (MA) to cut your loses"

 

[bikinigirl]

What I don't like is the comments about losing $1m a season; I am sure MC said this when he took over and appears to be still saying it even after the new TV deal means clubs have more money.
If he means the running costs before transfer fees received, ad hoc sponsorship etc, fair enough, but an airy comment about a $1m doesn't really mean much at all.
I am quite happy if he wants the club to be run more like a business but he shouldn't be surprised at it losing money

. another reason people could be staying away or avoiding an emotional attachment to the club (which becomes easier when the performances drop)

. if the fans are constantly hearing about million dollar losses and know there is no new rights deal for years ... it's not unreasonable for them to think: 'me turning up to games isn't going to keep the team on the coast'

as AM has been stating . we don't have a side without MC .
his communication skills may not be cutting the mustard.so maybe the time has to be taken to
ask him ,"what can we do to keep our side on the coast. " and " how can we help you (MA) to cut your loses"

. tying this in to my comments above ... he said he needs bigger crowds on the coast (although nobody knows how big). some numbers again:

• $1m per year = $77k per game (for 13)
• assuming $15 per ticket to the club (maybe someone can guide me on this one)
• we need another 5,000+ ... to each and every home game
• which would bring our average crowd above 15,000 (a mere 50% increase in the only break-even crowd number i remember hearing)

. is that possible? perhaps. realistic? maybe not. likely considering all the relocation chat? definitely not.