marconigirl
Well-Known Member
haha, if that happened, I would gladly accept that the player should have a life sentence...
They need to put things into perspective I think...
They need to put things into perspective I think...
-
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Merged Thread - Danny Vukovic Red Card (outcome page 42)
- Thread starter merrinator
- Start date
marinerbhoy
Well-Known Member
fishmum said:
you just dont get it do you. stuff the newcastle players. who cares what they did. two wrongs dont make a right. and it was not just the actions of danny. it was the reaction of the team. your bias is making you completely miss the point.
marinerbhoy
Well-Known Member
lets not start this conspiracy crap again
Capn Gus Bloodbeard
Well-Known Member
Upon reflection I find that I cannot form an objective opinion on the length of Vukovic's ban. Only that it's a little curious that it's far tougher than what most other leagues give out - I believe most cases of pushing referees earn 5-6 weeks. The biggest thing I can say in favour of him in regards to the incident is that I don't think there was any malice behind it, nor aggression, nor attempt to intimidate.
As a referee I think the FFA needs to come down hard on all cases of assault - as a CCM supporter I think we got raped.
My primary issue, is consistency. This is at least the 4th case of referee assault this season, and the 3rd case in 3 rounds.
What I find absolutely appalling is that the other cases were considered ok. I actually find Milligan's poke to be worse than what any of them did - Griffiths included.
For not only Shield to ignore that but to send off Danny is unbelievable enough, but for the FFA to also ignore that poke yet draw attention to Sasho tapping his hand is ludicrous beyond belief. The refereeing has enough consistency issues, but it seems that those issues extend to the FFA's disciplinary committee as well. To even contemplate citing Sasho after Milligan's poke was let off the hook cannot be justified. Although the more I think about it, Sasho's was probably more intimidatory than Vukovic's was.
I personally wouldn't have had a problem if Sasho had been sent on principle either, but it's the lack of consistency - and the fact that we're the ONLY team to pay for it, that peeves me off no end.
It'd be so much easier if it was clear to everybody - HANDS OFF THE REFEREE. That's a principle that every player understands - but the referees have ignored it. If they've applied it, then there would've been consistency, and I'm sure we'd all accept the action against Danny a lot easier.
The FFA needs to sort this out or fans will leave in droves. Instead, the FFA seem like they're actively encouraging the inconsistency.
I also wonder if anything will change in regards to the refereeing and handling of dissent and OFFINABUS.
IMO, dissent and OFFINABUS has systematically increased throughout the HAL. I firmly believe that no matter where you draw the line, players will keep pushing it and force you to either hold the line, or move the line back (which is almost invariably the poorer option). I feel that in regards to dissent and OFFINABUS (as well as some other areas) the officials have continued to move the line back and allow the players to get away with more and more. I think the fact that there have been several assaults in a couple of rounds is very strong evidence that the referees have gone too far in their tolerance and need to pull it back, otherwise these incidents will not only continue, but will filter down to the grassroots level. However, the FFA's track record doesn't give me optimism that anything will change as a result of this.
I have no idea what exactly the Mariners have done wrong that needs to be explained - I think the tremendous responsibility of the Jets in the various confrontations has been completely ignored.
It seems that the FFA have decided to make a scapegoat out of Vukovic, and decided to extend that to the entire team.
This is wrong. This is so very, very wrong.
As a referee I think the FFA needs to come down hard on all cases of assault - as a CCM supporter I think we got raped.
My primary issue, is consistency. This is at least the 4th case of referee assault this season, and the 3rd case in 3 rounds.
What I find absolutely appalling is that the other cases were considered ok. I actually find Milligan's poke to be worse than what any of them did - Griffiths included.
For not only Shield to ignore that but to send off Danny is unbelievable enough, but for the FFA to also ignore that poke yet draw attention to Sasho tapping his hand is ludicrous beyond belief. The refereeing has enough consistency issues, but it seems that those issues extend to the FFA's disciplinary committee as well. To even contemplate citing Sasho after Milligan's poke was let off the hook cannot be justified. Although the more I think about it, Sasho's was probably more intimidatory than Vukovic's was.
I personally wouldn't have had a problem if Sasho had been sent on principle either, but it's the lack of consistency - and the fact that we're the ONLY team to pay for it, that peeves me off no end.
It'd be so much easier if it was clear to everybody - HANDS OFF THE REFEREE. That's a principle that every player understands - but the referees have ignored it. If they've applied it, then there would've been consistency, and I'm sure we'd all accept the action against Danny a lot easier.
The FFA needs to sort this out or fans will leave in droves. Instead, the FFA seem like they're actively encouraging the inconsistency.
I also wonder if anything will change in regards to the refereeing and handling of dissent and OFFINABUS.
IMO, dissent and OFFINABUS has systematically increased throughout the HAL. I firmly believe that no matter where you draw the line, players will keep pushing it and force you to either hold the line, or move the line back (which is almost invariably the poorer option). I feel that in regards to dissent and OFFINABUS (as well as some other areas) the officials have continued to move the line back and allow the players to get away with more and more. I think the fact that there have been several assaults in a couple of rounds is very strong evidence that the referees have gone too far in their tolerance and need to pull it back, otherwise these incidents will not only continue, but will filter down to the grassroots level. However, the FFA's track record doesn't give me optimism that anything will change as a result of this.
I have no idea what exactly the Mariners have done wrong that needs to be explained - I think the tremendous responsibility of the Jets in the various confrontations has been completely ignored.
It seems that the FFA have decided to make a scapegoat out of Vukovic, and decided to extend that to the entire team.
This is wrong. This is so very, very wrong.
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LFCMariners
Well-Known Member
skilbeck said:
Exactly. Hate to say it, but it's times like this I almost regret not following Sydney or the Scum. At least then you know you'll generally get a fair deal. The FFA seems to think that because it's us, they can do what they like. When they were taking applications for the new A-League, I'm sure they saw the Mariners as novelty value- a team strategically located on the Central Coast in the absence of an NRL team, but nothing they would really have to worry about while Sydney and Melbourne and Perth won all the silverware.
Instead, the Mariners have embarrassed a few clubs on and off the field, but to the A-League appeasing the clubs with the biggest fan-bases is more important than being consistant and doing the right thing by every club. I'm wondering if Newcastle's win had anything to do with trying to capitalize on the Knights' poor season and striking while the iron was hot?
It may sound like a crazy conspiracy theory, but I'm starting to wonder.
S
soccersensei
Guest
sambuca said:Makes me wonder whether or not there will be an appeal. I know if it was me, an appeal would surely be occuring.
To be cited under "violent conduct" requires "excessive force" - there is no way that Danny's actions resulted in excessive force! Don't get me wrong, I dont condone his actions, but as someone with a legal background, the punishment has to fit the crime - not just be used as a deterrent for other players!
Exactly! Well said!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionel_Ganea
romanian striker Ionel Ganea strangles an assistant ref and gets 22 matches which is a way more serious offence IMO with a slightly longer ban therefore dannys is remaining disproportionate and inconsistent with serious acts of violence elsewhere in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU3JttH55Ls&NR=1
romanian striker Ionel Ganea strangles an assistant ref and gets 22 matches which is a way more serious offence IMO with a slightly longer ban therefore dannys is remaining disproportionate and inconsistent with serious acts of violence elsewhere in the world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU3JttH55Ls&NR=1
LFCMariners
Well-Known Member
If Joel Griffiths' did that he would just get a very stern talking to by the FFA and then a brown envelope full of money to slip to Mr Breeze in the tunnel before they both took the field of that weekends' game.
Capn Gus Bloodbeard
Well-Known Member
sambuca said:
If you're referring to the LOTG, VC doesn't require excessive force. It merely requires a referee's opinion of what's violent. Naturally they're going to be a lot stricter when it's a non player involved - and so they should be. The term 'violent' is a bit of a misnomer for everything it's supposed to cover.
brett said:
Unfortunately, Shield is still the worst out of all this. Several weeks before Milligan gave him a hard poke in the chest while abusing him, and Shield didn't do a thing. IMO, that's worse than what both Danny and Griffiths did - even Griffith's was little more than a brief spat, but Milligan's was an aggressive attempt to intimidate the referee. The fact that it's the same referee makes the inconsistency so much worse than comparing Shield to Breeze (and it was actually the AR's fault for misreporting what Griffith's did - Breeze didn't even see it).
If anybody thinks that Breeze is half as retarded as Shield is then they need their head examined. Breeze's f**kups pale in comparison.
S
soccersensei
Guest
(Long post warning...sorry...sigh...)
Marinerbhoy,
I understand and appreciate your point of view and was also distressed by the late loss of control that took place, for both teams, and nearly all players. I'm sure nobody enjoyed this or is in support of it, though I wouldn't single out Aloisi or even Wilikinson who as captain would have to bare more responsibility for leadership in this regard to be fair. No one would argue I think that what transpired was good for the sport or our club, or the Jets for that matter. I personally stood there, and remember that sinking feeling while my father shook his head saying "this isn't good, this isn't good"
That said, many people feel the severity of the punishment was unfair and there are may credible arguments as to why, and I can certainly feel empathy for fishsmum and many others who feel a great sense of injustice. Incidents took place, people misbehaved, lines were crossed... But we always have to ask why... Condemning or judging is easy, whether its for or against, but getting past emotional response and getting to truth of what drives and causes incidents is not. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's pretty helpful to know why their were wrongs in the first place.
Citing the Mariners... yes, its fine to pull the kid whose in the fight up at school, but you always have to pull both boys (or girls
) in aswell. As my Grandmother used to say "it takes two to tango" A good school principal will also, as may well the parents of the child - like to know - was their adequate supervision and custodianship of their child? And again, why did it all happen in the first place? This helps a parent to understand their child's behaviour and also to forgive them (which I guess essentially is what I think you may need to do) because otherwise as a parent you canot help them change where necessary nor teach them how to avoid such mistakes in the future. This is generally what we all try to do for those we love or care for. Its a continual process of screwing up, forgiving, learning, growing and then screwing up again...
So where do you proportion blame, usually it tends to lie with many factors and very very rarely just one or only a few, and this is where my own heart is torn by what happened. It did not take the 88th minute for me to be upset over the fact that the game was being mishandled or "non -handled" by the one person appointed to be in charge of ensuring proper conduct and behaviour.
This was always going to be a hugely emotionally charged game and needed a firm, calming assertive influence to take matters in hand right from the outset. Mark Shields does not presently possess these skills. (BEFORE MY CRITICS SPEAK OUT, this is not about saying no one deserves to be punished, and no one did anything wrong, and its all everyone else's fault...blah blah whinge whinge... if you can't grasp that, keep it simple and skip my posts it'll save you and me unnecessary effort and grief.)
There were plenty of people at fault, but if you want to get to the heart of Sundayss explosions, the you have to look at the big picture, we all knew that it was primed to happen. It was high stakes, huge derby rivalry, complete with former incidents, grudges...and the list goes on... But these were KNOWN FACTORS and when there is known factors, then there is a great gift, for now you have (the opportunity to act pre emptively and this is where for me at least the greatest amount of dissapointment subsequently lies. From Jet supporters in marinator bays, to the refereeing and lack of true calming influence and authority.
It boils down to the nature of peace keeping. Laws exist not only to provide us with moral yard sticks by which we can best punish people but also to act as deterrents. This is not just to make governance possible it also understands that it is far better to prevent a crime if possible than to punish it. This does not mean crimes should go unpunished. PLEASE RE READ THIS SENTENCE IF ANYONE THINKS I AM SAYING OTHERWISE. What it does is place an onus on the Governing force to be responsible and proactive in regards to keeping the peace. This is modern policing, where they try to work in with the community and increase education to try and prevent and not simply ignore first to then have to forcefully punish later. This lesson was learnt the hard way in law enforcement and I hope we can earn it too, as this is where I really struggle with what happened and is where I feel great empathy for ALL the players on BOTH SIDES on the park. It did not take me to the 88th minute to gauge that the levels of frustration and aggro were not addressed early enough, often enough, and smart enough. If you watch top referees at work, the rugby union world cup is a prime example of how skilled referees can be at defusing, slowing down, pacifying, calming and exerting their influence so as to control games that are more prone by the nature of their particular sport to emotional outbreaks and violence on the field. This skill was completely missing from the grand final in a game where with FOX repeatedly showing pictures of Hutch's late tackle all bloody week, we, like everyone else, knew exactly what level of emotionality was going to be involved. It does not excuse the subsequent errors and losses of temper by players, but it does help explain why the tempers were so readily lost in the first place. As I have said before, it could so easily have been virtually anyone else on the park in regards to Danny's tragic hand slap... And so I personally do not struggle to feel compassion for the boys, I feel as I have already stated that Danny's punishment does not fit the crime, and have no desire to see anyone further punished, excepting that I DO HAVE A STRONG DESIRE TO SEE MARK SHIELDS AND THE FFA TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN INADEQUACIES AND SHORTCOMINGS as it is essential to their, and subsequently all of our, further growth.
Best Wishes
SS
Marinerbhoy,
I understand and appreciate your point of view and was also distressed by the late loss of control that took place, for both teams, and nearly all players. I'm sure nobody enjoyed this or is in support of it, though I wouldn't single out Aloisi or even Wilikinson who as captain would have to bare more responsibility for leadership in this regard to be fair. No one would argue I think that what transpired was good for the sport or our club, or the Jets for that matter. I personally stood there, and remember that sinking feeling while my father shook his head saying "this isn't good, this isn't good"
That said, many people feel the severity of the punishment was unfair and there are may credible arguments as to why, and I can certainly feel empathy for fishsmum and many others who feel a great sense of injustice. Incidents took place, people misbehaved, lines were crossed... But we always have to ask why... Condemning or judging is easy, whether its for or against, but getting past emotional response and getting to truth of what drives and causes incidents is not. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's pretty helpful to know why their were wrongs in the first place.
Citing the Mariners... yes, its fine to pull the kid whose in the fight up at school, but you always have to pull both boys (or girls
) in aswell. As my Grandmother used to say "it takes two to tango" A good school principal will also, as may well the parents of the child - like to know - was their adequate supervision and custodianship of their child? And again, why did it all happen in the first place? This helps a parent to understand their child's behaviour and also to forgive them (which I guess essentially is what I think you may need to do) because otherwise as a parent you canot help them change where necessary nor teach them how to avoid such mistakes in the future. This is generally what we all try to do for those we love or care for. Its a continual process of screwing up, forgiving, learning, growing and then screwing up again...So where do you proportion blame, usually it tends to lie with many factors and very very rarely just one or only a few, and this is where my own heart is torn by what happened. It did not take the 88th minute for me to be upset over the fact that the game was being mishandled or "non -handled" by the one person appointed to be in charge of ensuring proper conduct and behaviour.
This was always going to be a hugely emotionally charged game and needed a firm, calming assertive influence to take matters in hand right from the outset. Mark Shields does not presently possess these skills. (BEFORE MY CRITICS SPEAK OUT, this is not about saying no one deserves to be punished, and no one did anything wrong, and its all everyone else's fault...blah blah whinge whinge... if you can't grasp that, keep it simple and skip my posts it'll save you and me unnecessary effort and grief.)
There were plenty of people at fault, but if you want to get to the heart of Sundayss explosions, the you have to look at the big picture, we all knew that it was primed to happen. It was high stakes, huge derby rivalry, complete with former incidents, grudges...and the list goes on... But these were KNOWN FACTORS and when there is known factors, then there is a great gift, for now you have (the opportunity to act pre emptively and this is where for me at least the greatest amount of dissapointment subsequently lies. From Jet supporters in marinator bays, to the refereeing and lack of true calming influence and authority.
It boils down to the nature of peace keeping. Laws exist not only to provide us with moral yard sticks by which we can best punish people but also to act as deterrents. This is not just to make governance possible it also understands that it is far better to prevent a crime if possible than to punish it. This does not mean crimes should go unpunished. PLEASE RE READ THIS SENTENCE IF ANYONE THINKS I AM SAYING OTHERWISE. What it does is place an onus on the Governing force to be responsible and proactive in regards to keeping the peace. This is modern policing, where they try to work in with the community and increase education to try and prevent and not simply ignore first to then have to forcefully punish later. This lesson was learnt the hard way in law enforcement and I hope we can earn it too, as this is where I really struggle with what happened and is where I feel great empathy for ALL the players on BOTH SIDES on the park. It did not take me to the 88th minute to gauge that the levels of frustration and aggro were not addressed early enough, often enough, and smart enough. If you watch top referees at work, the rugby union world cup is a prime example of how skilled referees can be at defusing, slowing down, pacifying, calming and exerting their influence so as to control games that are more prone by the nature of their particular sport to emotional outbreaks and violence on the field. This skill was completely missing from the grand final in a game where with FOX repeatedly showing pictures of Hutch's late tackle all bloody week, we, like everyone else, knew exactly what level of emotionality was going to be involved. It does not excuse the subsequent errors and losses of temper by players, but it does help explain why the tempers were so readily lost in the first place. As I have said before, it could so easily have been virtually anyone else on the park in regards to Danny's tragic hand slap... And so I personally do not struggle to feel compassion for the boys, I feel as I have already stated that Danny's punishment does not fit the crime, and have no desire to see anyone further punished, excepting that I DO HAVE A STRONG DESIRE TO SEE MARK SHIELDS AND THE FFA TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN INADEQUACIES AND SHORTCOMINGS as it is essential to their, and subsequently all of our, further growth.
Best Wishes
SS
serious14
Well-Known Member
"Reggina-Juve Ref To Be Suspended For Two Months.
Paolo Dondarini, the referee at the centre of the controversy at Reggina on Saturday night, is set to be suspended from duty for two months, according to the Gazzetta dello Sport.
Dondarini has been widely condemned throughout the peninsula for a shocking display at the Stadio Granillo.
The official denied Juventus two clear penalties, awarded Reggina a debatable spot-kick, while his overall management of the game was also perceived as clearly siding with the home side.
The Gazzetta says that as punishment Dondarini will be suspended for two months, and when he returns from his ban, he will be demoted to officiate matches in Serie B.
There was a similar sentence handed out to Mauro Bergonzi after the hugely controversial Napoli Juventus clash last October. In that game Bergonzi awarded the Partenopei two scandalous penalties as they inflicted a 3-1 defeat on the Bianconeri."
This was the letter from the club's CEO (well, Italian equivalent) that helped bring about the punishment.......
'Juventus again asks the federation to take immediate action to clean up a seriously compromised situation. We need to rediscover faith in referees and reinvigorate Italian football,' said the letter which was published on Juventus's website on Sunday.
The club are back in the top flight after spending last season in Serie B having been found guilty of procuring favourable referees in a match-fixing scandal.
'In the course of this season and last, Juventus have always tried to defuse tension with referees...accepting decisions with fair play, even controversial ones,' the letter added.
'In the light of what happened at Reggio Calabria however, it is an attitude we must reconsider. Again in the course of this season Juventus have been damaged in an irreversible way by a decision of the referee.'"
Well, it happened there, so why not here?? Time to start some letter writing methinks - who gives a sh*t about the fine for "bringing the game into disrepute", THIS IS THE VERY INTEGRITY OF THE GAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!
Paolo Dondarini, the referee at the centre of the controversy at Reggina on Saturday night, is set to be suspended from duty for two months, according to the Gazzetta dello Sport.
Dondarini has been widely condemned throughout the peninsula for a shocking display at the Stadio Granillo.
The official denied Juventus two clear penalties, awarded Reggina a debatable spot-kick, while his overall management of the game was also perceived as clearly siding with the home side.
The Gazzetta says that as punishment Dondarini will be suspended for two months, and when he returns from his ban, he will be demoted to officiate matches in Serie B.
There was a similar sentence handed out to Mauro Bergonzi after the hugely controversial Napoli Juventus clash last October. In that game Bergonzi awarded the Partenopei two scandalous penalties as they inflicted a 3-1 defeat on the Bianconeri."
This was the letter from the club's CEO (well, Italian equivalent) that helped bring about the punishment.......
'Juventus again asks the federation to take immediate action to clean up a seriously compromised situation. We need to rediscover faith in referees and reinvigorate Italian football,' said the letter which was published on Juventus's website on Sunday.
The club are back in the top flight after spending last season in Serie B having been found guilty of procuring favourable referees in a match-fixing scandal.
'In the course of this season and last, Juventus have always tried to defuse tension with referees...accepting decisions with fair play, even controversial ones,' the letter added.
'In the light of what happened at Reggio Calabria however, it is an attitude we must reconsider. Again in the course of this season Juventus have been damaged in an irreversible way by a decision of the referee.'"
Well, it happened there, so why not here?? Time to start some letter writing methinks - who gives a sh*t about the fine for "bringing the game into disrepute", THIS IS THE VERY INTEGRITY OF THE GAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!
S
soccersensei
Guest
Amen Serious! Great post! Blackadder
Well-Known Member
This is absoulte bullshit decision, and completely out of line to other incidients of contact with a official.
The FFA are considering extending the ban to cover the Olympics, to lose a likely Olympic spot because of a split second decision in which no injury occured is bordering on farcical.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23274565-23215,00.html
The FFA are considering extending the ban to cover the Olympics, to lose a likely Olympic spot because of a split second decision in which no injury occured is bordering on farcical.
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23274565-23215,00.html
FFC Mariner
Well-Known Member
Looking forward to Shields next visit to BT.
1st game I expect if the FFA are organising it - probably against the scum too
1st game I expect if the FFA are organising it - probably against the scum too
FFC Mariner
Well-Known Member
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9241598906
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