Mariner stuff not worthy of a whole thread

[nebakke]

In all of this if this system came about we would be paying other clubs as well e.g Heff , Bray and Uskok from their Melbourne clubs, Sim , Trifirro and Posco from their Sydney NPL clubs .

I am all for these clubs getting some return on their effort and putting these guys in the window to start with.
So when Arnie comes sniffing don't forget we already did it.

The objection isn't to sniffing around as such. It's that his hunting grounds seem very one dimensional and that we're in direct competition, so if he can poach a good player from us he gets double the advantage.

 

[dibo]

Our to best players lol

That sentence doesn't make any sense.

 

[sydmariner]

That sentence doesn't make any sense.

fitzy & cass our 2 best players lol

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Salary cap and transfers different issues.
Transfers:
Why limit our selling opportunities? The Australian market would be our biggest opportunity. Look at Caceras as an example his lack of European passport might limit his overseas opportunities. We can sell to Asia where they only want the best due to their restrictions, lower England leagues have to much choice to spend much and Holland etc also want the best players. A lot of the players we sell are Socceroos or have Socceroos potential. They don't come around all the time. Also we have sold a few times in Jan when the player has been in the last 6 months of their contract therefore reducing the price we would have received and no guarantee they would resign or they did resign based on a condition that we would sell as soon as they found a buyer.

Caceras wanted out for some reasonable reasons that were basically club inflicted but also might have had someone pushing it. He allegedly wanted to go to Syd, we were prepared to let him go if we got players in return, which is fine but does the new player really want to be here (another argument). Sydney getting the shits shows they had him in their sights and might have been niggling at him. We didn't need to cave and possibly wouldn't have and he might have come back and tried harder knowing a line had been drawn or he might have had a bigger sook so hard to tell. Our motto is to sell for profit, so to make us viable we need to sell.

Look at the other end, Fitzy. He obviously was not a sellable commodity but Melb City took him. If there was a transfer system we might have been able to get some money for him. Even 10k is better than the see you later we got. We could sell lesser players to Aussie clubs as well it's not all about the big deals. All this is what the club wants, fans yeah for sure I don't want them running around for the other clubs but if we don't sell in our contract period they can just walk. Maybe the recent history of everyone going to Syd clouds the judgement

Also a transfer fee goes club to club and has no effect on the player.
So doesn't matter what we get for the sale the buyer still needs to put his contract in the salary cap. If Syd or City want someone bad enough let them pay us what we can get. If the player gets an increase at the new club they might be happy. E.g we might pay Caceras 100k and City might pay him 200k per year. Let City or Syd waste their spare cash on us if they want. Not our problem if the players wage is less than a transfer fee.

Also we don't need to sell. It can be easy to shut down transfer gossip. Jump on the front foot. We are not selling the end stop talking about it.
Look at Dortmund hands off their striker he not for sale don't bother, but Madrid are weak in their comments because they want the chatter.

The risk could be we have to look at longer contracts than present and that could be a problem if they fail.

Ideally the Jan window doesn't exist but that will never happen.

Also
Salary Cap:
Absolutely needs to be kept and strictly. Already the small changes are making an obvious divide in my mind. Think we just lucky Syd and West Syd Marquees aren't as good as City. Overseas recruits are very important atm.

I think the drama already exists in the A League the remedies are just limited to release or swap deal. We might not always want what the other team has to offer.

Thanks for that post Big Al.

Firstly, I don't think I conflated salary cap and transfer fees. Certainly wasn't my intent. I just cited it as an example of something that we do differently in the HAL (compared to more open markets) and while it may have hampered clubs with wealthy owners and better turn overs,
it has clearly been of enormous aid to CCM and the other smaller HAL clubs. So glad we agree on that.

"Why limit our selling opportunities?"

Because:

A) We haven't been struggling for adequate market opportunities. To the contrary we've been doing very well. Our problem has been keeping our players, not our ability to offload them.

B) You're making the assumption that by being open for poaching in the HAL that we will see more profitable sales. We might see more regular sales - but there is more evidence to suggest we would lose players sooner and for less than suddenly we'd find the lucrative selling opportunities we've always been missing? You're a young prodigy, everyone knows you'll probably go OS , only a matter of time. Got six moths left. So why sign on with CCM for another 3 years to be transferred in the next 18 months, when you can sign to MV now on an improved wage, play for bigger crowds at a bigger club and then still go OS in 12 months time.

C) A transfer fee is not the only measure in assessing the value and wisdom of a sale. While important, it is still only one measurement in determining whether a sale will be of best VALUE to the club. You're a switched on guy, you know how much work must go into acquisitions, getting the right fit, squad balance, team understanding, pre season etc etc... A balance must be struck between disruptions to the squad, preparations, on field performance and longer term growth/greater$$potential. Those things are dollars to a club. Caceres is indeed a good example. Because if he had buckled down and started dictating games, scoring regularly and providing assists, we should have been looking at him genuinely going OS for twice the fee we received. I'm POSITIVE that's what the club was hoping. And a better reflection of the investment made and opportunity provided. Instead because we faced disruption and mid season sabotage we had to work hard to make the most out of it. But make no mistake, his agent will be hoping/believing that he will now have his break out season and then goes OS for a bigger fee next and he can rub that fact in to the Mariners.

D) I don't think it is easy at all to shut down transfer issues. Not sure what gives you this idea. You can watch the biggest clubs in the world fail. No reason to think we would be successful.

"Our motto is to sell for profit, so to make us viable we need to sell."

This statement is inaccurate and really needs to be more specific/nuanced. Our motto is to develop young talent and then sell that talent on for a 'true' profit and provide better career opportunities as then other young players will continue to join our pipeline.

How much has been invested in a player, and where it will leave the club and what gain if they leave now, or later, and to whom all count. 100K transfer fee from MV may be a profit on the books but represent a loss in future revenue and prior investment. And while you think wage doesn't come into it, will be hard to stop when a player wants to earn even just an additional 20K a year at Victory and agents bang on about not being played what your worth etc etc.

And we ARE selling. What opportunities have we missed Big AL? I can't think of a situation were we've failed in this to date? That includes Fitzy. This is clearly just us freeing some up some needed funds from an unhappy player and doing him a favour fro services rendered by releasing him because he's unlikely to get picked up for a fee by another HAL side. The fact City just bypassed the rules to get Caceres but made no offer for Fitz, just proves they didn't want to pay a fee for him. Not that "no transfer fees between HAL clubs" cost us.

Of course, I can imagine a situation where it would be good to offload a player to another HAL club for some cash Big Al. But I think those few gains, would almost certainly be overwhelmed by other net losses. Like playing good football for one

I would ask of you to consider why do you think the present rule exists?

HAL/FFA ineptitude? Which I've heard Euro snobs and 'big club" fans purport.
I know the PFA opposes it because the off loading, swaps and loans etc that take place are not always in players best interest. But for the lowest resourced club in the league, do you really think we would not fall prey to other clubs who have more dollars, bigger profiles, facilities and media support? That we would simply profit and grow?

The free markets of the world do not bare this conclusion out Big AL. The opposite is true. Odds are we'd be left battered, bruised and cynical like so many other once proud clubs around the world.

Do you really think we'd be in a better position if other HAL clubs could swoop in mid season for our best players over the past ten years?

Always willing to concede I may be wrong, but my own opinion is that for a couple of times where we may have made a few grand, the price would have been seeing our squad consistently dismantled for what would in relative terms pennies on the pound - making any silverware even harder to come by.

Anyway, my two hundred cents as ever. make of it as you will mate.

Best
FP

 

[dibo]

fitzy & cass our 2 best players lol

Well, now we know you don't actually watch games.

 

[Gratis]

You're a young prodigy, everyone knows you'll probably go OS , only a matter of time. Got six moths left. So why sign on with CCM for another 3 years to be transferred in the next 18 months, when you can sign to MV now on an improved wage, play for bigger crowds at a bigger club and then still go OS in 12 months time.

This is what I was getting at, FP said it better.
True or not it feels like this is what Caceres has done. Maybe someone was in his ear that his 'remarkable talents' weren't being displayed well enough in the last team in the comp - perhaps the shop window would be bigger in a Syd or Melb club nudge nudge wink wink...?

 

[dibo]

His 'remarkable talents' weren't exactly showing through when he was playing like a busted arse.

We had plenty of times where we had enough ball and enough runners to be threatening and he was the broken link in the chain, because he'd pick a shit option or he'd hold the pass back too long or he'd hold onto the ball until he was tackled and then watch as his teammates in advanced positions making unrewarded runs have to battle to recover position and we concede...

 

[Gratis]

oh i agree completely - but i'm 95% certain Cac's agent was in his ear saying "your remarkable talents aren't being displayed well enough in the last team in the comp"

whether it's fair to say it or not Rallis may very well have just been thinking about his own back pocket in pushing this

 

[localpom]

This is what I was getting at, FP said it better.
True or not it feels like this is what Caceres has done. Maybe someone was in his ear that his remarkable talents weren't being displayed well enough in the last team in the comp - perhaps the shop window would be bigger in a Syd or Melb club nudge nudge wink wink...?

I would argue he would have been far better off knuckling down, staying with us and playing every week. The danger for Cac and Fitzy is they may well not get regular game time and disappear into obscurity. Anthony might shine in a great team, but i think Fitz will struggle.

 

[Gratis]

yep, and as i said before my prediction for Cac is initially off the bench, followed by maybe a couple of weeks starting when they need him, then back to the bench for the rest of the season.
Fitzy will only occasionally make the bench.

Biting the hand that feeds boys...good luck to you

 

[Wombat]

FFA to review 'Caceres rule' at season's end:

The controversial 'Anthony Caceres rule' that allowed the player to make his way from Central Coast Mariners to Melbourne City via the latter's parent club, Manchester City, will be reviewed at the end of the season.

Football Federation Australia (FFA) told The World Game that while the process by which Caceres ended up at Melbourne City was legitimate under the rules, such regulations were reviewed annually. Sydney FC CEO Tony Pignata has robustly led calls for a review.

The statement released by FFA read: "The transfer of Anthony Caceres from the Central Coast Mariners to Manchester City and the subsequent loan from Manchester City to Melbourne City has been completed in line with the current FFA regulatory framework,” said Head of the A-League, Damien de Bohun.

"Those regulations are reviewed in the normal course of business after every season."

There would have understandably been no anticipation of a body such as the City Football Group, owners of English Premier League giant Manchester City, purchasing an A-League club when the rules were first put in place.

On Twitter on Tuesday, Pignata was highly critical of the rule that allowed the move.

Elaborating in a conversation with False 9, Pignata described it as a loophole that needed to be closed to be fair to the other nine A-League clubs, which don't have big-spending parent clubs.

"What Melbourne City have done is legit, you know, they've loaned a player through Man City and the transfer window's open and I'm sure that what's required to go into the salary cap has been approved by the FFA," Pignata said.

"But what I'm saying is the current laws are wrong and that they need to be reviewed at the end of the season because there's a loophole and it's not a level playing field for all the other clubs.

"Your parent club buys the player and then, because there's no transfers between A-League clubs, effectively Caceres has gone from Central Coast to Melbourne City via Man City.

"If they say that we're allowed to do loans or transfers between A-League clubs, then so be it, but at the moment we're not allowed to do it. The only way you can get another player is if his contract is terminated and another club can pick him up."

After posting an initial tweet about the Caceres move, Pignata later posted another tweet, which he told False 9 he did to clarify
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From Twitter:

The loaning of Caceres to City is wrong. How can @FFA allow this? There are no transfers between@ALeague clubs yet it seems you can by pass

— Tony Pignata (@tpignata9)January 19, 2016
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Just one point to add. What City have done is totally within the rules. I just think that current@FFA rules need to be looked at.

— Tony Pignata (@tpignata9)January 19, 2016
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"I just wanted people to be sure that I'm not saying there's anything sinister behind what Melbourne City have done," Pignata said.

"What they've done is totally legit under the current laws, but if everyone just sits on their hands nothing gets done (in response).

"I believe in building this league up and making sure this whole game grows, and I'm sure if you asked the FFA they would acknowledge that it is something they need to look at.

"You can't change the rules mid-season, but at the end of the season let's look at this rule and see what can be done to make it fair and equitable across the league."

The Mancunian Candidate

Meanwhile, football fans have swamped Caceres with congratulations for the wonderful career he had at Manchester City in the five minutes between him leaving Central Coast Mariners and joining Melbourne City.

Caceres made such an impact that Manchester City manager Manuel Pellegrini told him: "I don't believe that anybody feels the way I do about you now."

OK, there was no such conversation and, yes, False 9 is taking the you-know-what. In all honesty, good luck to Caceres, he is just trying to further his career.

And if you recognise those words attributed to Pellegrini but which he never said, you won't be surprised to learn they represent the cue for one of the most annoying Mancunians ever to see the light of day, Liam Gallagher, and the rest of Oasis to take to the stage.

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/arti...-round-15-ffa-review-caceres-rule-seasons-end

Who gives a f**k...good result for us.

 

[Wombat]

Well, now we know you don't actually watch games.[/QUO

Rainman was joking Dibo.

 

[VicMariner]

Rainman was joking Dibo.

Would you put money on that?
I wouldn't.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Yeah syd was joking for sure.

He's been our best player - has been everywhere.

Positively ludicrous statement. Being supported by people on forums who watch cacecers 3 times a year and from tv coverage that goes whereever the ball goes and can't reflect what is happening off the ball or whether the player has moved to a poor position or failed to release when they should.

They don't see him fail to run or run into a hole on the sideline where it doesn't matter if he can skin 50 players. Or notice like fans do when he goes missing every other week. They just remember seeing him recieve the ball in a tight area when the camera zoomed in and watch as he then battles to win a futsal exchange and marvel at his good feet.

Yet i read 442's resident forum guru saying how great a player he is and that his vision and reading of the game (for real) is fantastic. Apparently his only problem has been having shit players around him.

To make these judgements on players when you do not watch them week in and week out live shows anyone who purports it, for the tossers they are. Knowledge, coaching badges or no. Any remotely wise coach knows that if you want to judge a player, there is just no way around putting in the hard yards and getting out to watch them over a sustained period and in person.

Do that with Caceres and the answer as to why his stats were so awful is answered. And that answer is not because he's never had anyone good enough to convert all the amazing chances he crafted or make a half decent run for him to play them on goal. Its just rubbish.

Very over the media. Even with Luis their articles seem semi barbed to me with "end of an era" stuff and the like. Clever. Not openly negative, but takes the shine off and pre-frames the counter narrative. CCM have sold out. They've changed. What was once there is gone etc... Anyway...

I think Fitz will find his way again. I genuinely hope so. The things he is missing nearly always improve with time and effort, the things Caceres is missing, may or may not.

 

[Luca Brasi]

Excerpts from an article in the Canberra Times by Chris Dutton.

W-League players have been asked this season to hand their phones to an official as soon as they arrive at venues, with the devices locked in a box until after the final whistle.
It's a first for the women's competition as officials get on the front foot against untoward activity and follows the same protocols used for the A-League and the National Youth Competition.
"One of the measures is to stop people sending messages about the team line-up or major injuries and any other situations that could lead to bets being plunged at the last minute after insider information," Reid said.
"All of our players and staff have to have their phones put in a locked box, the same with referees and match officials. They are held for the game by a security person.
"Having a mobile and communications device policy is considered best practice and is one of a number of integrity measures we have in place for the [W-League]," said an FFA spokesperson.

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/spo...corruption-20160120-gm9r1r.html#ixzz3xvNNjSMH

I was unaware of this protocol which has been in place for the A-League for some time apparently. Makes an absolute nonsense of the media/PFA hysteria directed at CCM about the request for players phones after the leaking of team selections/tactics, especially when read in conjunction with the FFA Code of Conduct and Sports Betting Guidelines:

FFA Sports Betting and Match Fixing Guidelines
It is important to note that there is nothing wrong having access to sensitive information; it
is what you do with it that matters. Most athletes know that they should not discuss team
tactics with anyone outside of the team.

No wonder we referred it to the FFA for investigation.

 

[dibo]

That's why I was banging on at the time that if Sydney became aware that any member of their club had been soliciting information that that action should be reported to FFA, or else action ought to be taken against them under the integrity rules.

 

[elevated position]

Maybe an inquiry into betting patterns on ccm games during the first half of the season might reveal something to go with.

 

[Rowdy]

Maybe an inquiry into betting patterns on ccm games during the first half of the season might reveal something to go with.

Why bother, all it will show is that a shitload of loyal Coasties have lost a shitload of money backing their team.

 

[style_cafe]

Forget the Russians it looks like the Chinese will be knocking on our door soon!!
http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/...-to-become-chinese-owned-20160124-gmcz4p.html

 

[Timmah]

Already discussed, dismissed and ridiculed in the Turbulence thread