Walmsley back at Mariners

[Wombat]

sully first then if he f**ks up then walmsley

Sully???? Are you joking.

 

[sydmariner]

Sully???? Are you joking.

no

 

[Wombat]

Must be on the strong grape juice tonight. Arguing with yourself now? lol

Lol....he rated my post dumb. But it's a bit quiet on here so maybe I should have a strong debate with myself!

 

[Wombat]

no

You are the cheese guy ......for sure!

 

[adz]

Lol....he rated my post dumb. But it's a bit quiet on here so maybe I should have a strong debate with myself!

If it makes you feel better, why not

 

[sydmariner]

You are the cheese guy ......for sure!

no i'm not i overheard him say that he lives in newcastle

 

[VicMariner]

I don't think it will make much difference who the coach is if some money doesn't get spent on the squad.
Currently we are one of the weakest teams. We lost a lot of talent that still hasn't been replaced.
MC has given us a League One team compared to the other HAL EPL teams. Quite an accomplishment in a salary capped league.
Look at what MVC have to work with, don't even know how they fit their squad under the cap.
It's going to be all uphill for any coach until we get some quality in key positions.

 

[nearlyyellow]

Look at what MVC have to work with, don't even know how they fit their squad under the cap.

It's interesting, isn't it? The way *some* clubs seem to have such a good HAL squad? And yet they still come under the cap. It's my belief that PG are only one of the cheaters, and if David gallop is fair dinkum he will wield a big scythe through these scabs. They are a blight on the game. Not the players fault at all, mind you. What professional sportsman wouldn't take whatever remuneration for his services that is offered. The liability lies with the club and it's officials.
Just sayin'

 

[dibo]

Maybe we've spent money really poorly? We might've just done a shocking job of putting together a squad on a budget.

I remain of the view that I'd rather see us go for kids, kids and more kids, and at least if we're losing games we're blooding talent and providing opportunities for kids to grow at the top level. I think our balance is off - we've got too many journeymen and too few kids (even though we're among the youngest squads in the league).

I'd rather we went out looking to play a clear philosophy with kids who are schooled in it from day dot, and aim to be a model development club. If we win trophies, great, but this would be a cost-effective (and therefore sustainable) way to get through to the next TV deal and beyond.

We'll never be a big club, we're never going to have the superstars of the big clubs, what we can do is sniff out value and put together squads that as a unit are better than their pricetag. Our squad under Arnie pretty well epitomised this idea.

If we don't do that, we'll be mediocre forever.

 

[sydmariner]

Maybe we've spent money really poorly? We might've just done a shocking job of putting together a squad on a budget.

I remain of the view that I'd rather see us go for kids, kids and more kids.

I agree but isn't that what the NYL is for?

 

[dibo]

Did I say we ought to sign kids and play them against other kids?

 

[MagpieMariner]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dibo, bring in the kids so they can learn. They aren't going to really improve by bossing others of the same standard, they will only improve by playing against those of a higher standard. I read a quote from, I think, Kalik the other day - he was shocked by the speed of the A-League compared to the NYL.

 

[VicMariner]

Maybe we've spent money really poorly? We might've just done a shocking job of putting together a squad on a budget.

I agree with this. It seems we have gone cheap and our foreigner recruitment has lost the smarts it used to have.
Hopefully signing Ferreira is a sign we are turning around in that regard.

I remain of the view that I'd rather see us go for kids, kids and more kids, and at least if we're losing games we're blooding talent and providing opportunities for kids to grow at the top level. I think our balance is off - we've got too many journeymen and too few kids (even though we're among the youngest squads in the league).

I'd rather we went out looking to play a clear philosophy with kids who are schooled in it from day dot, and aim to be a model development club. If we win trophies, great, but this would be a cost-effective (and therefore sustainable) way to get through to the next TV deal and beyond.

I think sydmariner is right above, sounds like a glorified NYL team to me.
That might be acceptable if there was no salary cap because we couldn't compete with the wealth of the big clubs but in a salary capped league we should be pushing for trophies. Focus on youth, sure but have a spine of quality, experienced players.

We'll never be a big club, we're never going to have the superstars of the big clubs, what we can do is sniff out value and put together squads that as a unit are better than their pricetag. Our squad under Arnie pretty well epitomised this idea.

If we don't do that, we'll be mediocre forever.

Arnie's teams had a good mix of youth and experience, if we just become a youth heavy development team we will just be mediocre. Plus kids need good players around them to learn off and push them for places.

 

[nebakke]

Who are our Journey men these days though?
If we assume that we're including the older players who have largely only played for the club, but are far from superstars of the game we have what?

Reddy, Bosnar, Rosie, Hutch, Monty, Matty and - perhaps - Ferreira.

Look at the Arnie side

Rosie, Zwaanswijk, Hutch, Monty, Kwassah, Macca, WeeMac (although that might be harsh, but then, so might Ferreira), Bojic, Hearfield, Pasfield?, Sterjovski, guy-whose-name-I-suddenly-can't-remember-was-bad-luck-bald-nice-guy-went-to-thailand-i-think

We could perhaps include Nash and and Vernes, although the first has barely even featured on the bench and the latter seems a bit young for a journeyman, but I suppose it makes up for WeeMac - that would make it 9 against 12, with a reasonable argument that there's more signed-in youth as opposed to those brought through the ranks I suppose.

I'm not sure the amount of journey-men is the problem, my gut-feel is still, to some extend, who they are.
Tbh, the main thing is that they need to be able to mentor... From that point-of-view, I actually think we have a pretty decent set, for the most part. I'm not convinced by Bosnar, still... Yep, he's scored a couple of goals etc, but he also seems prone to losing his head... We can get that out of the youth guys I think... I'd like to see another experienced player signed into his role.... I think, again, it's about stability of the defence. If we can rebuild a strong defence, I too, am of the belief that the rest will follow.
Half the reason why Duke had to play so much defence, was that it was very touch-and-go back there... Even Matty Simon does a fair bit of defensive work... You look at the way we played McBreen for example, he rarely ever did anything like that... Indeed, it used to be one of the things about him that frustrated me, that he'd often just watch the ball get played right in front of him and do nothing about it...

Tbf, if I am right, then the indication would probably be that we need a new coach I guess... The fact is though, that I'm not actually sure what it is that is falling apart, but it's frustrating.

 

[dibo]

Who are our Journey men these days though?

Eddy Bosnar, Matt Simon, Matthew Sim, Isaka Cernak, Brent Griffiths, Matthew Nash.

That's a quarter of our squad that I can't help thinking we might have done better with.

Of these, Simon's good as a local, but I'm not sold on the others as 'good signings' in the context of managing a squad over several seasons. All are 24+, none has a great resume, none is going to be a crucial part of the squad in three years' time. I'm guessing that none of them are on anything like the minimum wage either. I give players like Major, Poscoliero and Trifiro the benefit of the doubt for the moment because I think there's been a bit more in the way of product from them this year *or* flashes of potential.

Generally though, I'd rather see us picking up 20-23 year olds and looking to build for the future.

I went to the Sydney vs Victory game on Saturday night and racked my brain to think who from our current side would be able to displace a player from one of those starting sides.

• Reddy might sneak in front of Coe but not Janjetovic
• Rose would be in front of Galloway and maybe edge Gersbach but Gersbach would be the better prospect to have in a squad because of his youth.

Then I'm done. Ryall, Jurman, Dimitrijevic, Naumoff, Tavares, Ibini, Brosque Janko, Ansell, Leijer, Milligan, Finkler, Valeri, Khalfallah, Berisha, Barbarouses...

IMHO, all of them beat out their opposite number in our squad.

If we're wondering why we're coming 8th, that's a pretty big reason. Once we've got a squad that's that far behind the standard, we're not winning a lot of games unless we're tactically brilliant (news flash - we're not).

There's a degree of blame that has to be shared between management and manager for that - either it's that we've under-spent or we've picked poorly. If we've under-spent, that's far easier to 'sell' than picking poorly.

Consider the difference in messaging between "we're in sustainability mode, we're sticking in the game until the new TV deal drops more cash on us and we live to see another day" and "we're doing our best but we've picked really poorly and got awful value for money".

Coming back to the thread title, this is why it's important we get the back end of our recruitment right. It's vital that we get the NYL going strong and feeding the first squad. That's why it's important we have Walmsley, and a strong support crew scouting NPL across the country.

It's important that we have a recruitment plan that goes beyond any given manager. Essentially we should have a TD who sets the agenda and has progression plans for the squad as a whole, with succession planning that ensures we always have new kids coming through. We should be avoiding signing external players wherever possible. Talented kids should be queuing around the block to sign with us, knowing that if they thrive and an overseas offer comes we'll take it, and that they'll be replaced as the next tooth in the shark's jaws comes forward.

 

[nearlyyellow]

The arguments about youth vs. experienced (ahem old? ) should bear in mind these age stats: Out of our current 26 we have 6 players 20 or under, 5 players 20 to 23, 7 players 23 to 25, 2 players 25 to 30 and 6 players 30+
So,
Better than 1 in 5 of our team are 20 or under
About 1 in 5 of our team are 20 to 23 AND thus 2 in 5 are younger than 23
Better than 1 in 4 of our team are 23 to 25 AND thus 70 % of our team are younger than 25

If that's not an emphasis on a youthful team then I don't know what is. The problem may be that we don't, as yet, appear to have, or have discovered, any freakishly good young talent.

(Statistics, damn statistics, what do they tell us?)

 

[nearlyyellow]

That's how I see the current squad.

 

[nebakke]

Eddy Bosnar, Matt Simon, Matthew Sim, Isaka Cernak, Brent Griffiths, Matthew Nash.

That's a quarter of our squad that I can't help thinking we might have done better with.

Of these, Simon's good as a local, but I'm not sold on the others as 'good signings' in the context of managing a squad over several seasons. All are 24+, none has a great resume, none is going to be a crucial part of the squad in three years' time. I'm guessing that none of them are on anything like the minimum wage either. I give players like Major, Poscoliero and Trifiro the benefit of the doubt for the moment because I think there's been a bit more in the way of product from them this year *or* flashes of potential.

Generally though, I'd rather see us picking up 20-23 year olds and looking to build for the future.

I went to the Sydney vs Victory game on Saturday night and racked my brain to think who from our current side would be able to displace a player from one of those starting sides.

• Reddy might sneak in front of Coe but not Janjetovic
• Rose would be in front of Galloway and maybe edge Gersbach but Gersbach would be the better prospect to have in a squad because of his youth.

Then I'm done. Ryall, Jurman, Dimitrijevic, Naumoff, Tavares, Ibini, Brosque Janko, Ansell, Leijer, Milligan, Finkler, Valeri, Khalfallah, Berisha, Barbarouses...

IMHO, all of them beat out their opposite number in our squad.

If we're wondering why we're coming 8th, that's a pretty big reason. Once we've got a squad that's that far behind the standard, we're not winning a lot of games unless we're tactically brilliant (news flash - we're not).

While I understand where you're coming from, I think the thing to bear in mind is that - I think - that your approach is an oversimplification, in a sense.
We do have a large amount of youth in the current squad. For mine, we also have a fair amount of youth with potential. In a like-for-like comparison, you'd have to consider whether all of the players are better than their respective counter-parts and bear in mind that while they might not be now, given a year or two they likely will be.
Are there better defenders out there than Poscoliero? Definitely! But if he comes along the way he looks, I think he'll be one of the best in the next couple of years. He needs to be a little more level-headed at times etc, but it's not stuff that can't be resolved.
Storm has already shown what he can do, same as Caceres... They're both in a bit of a rot right now, question is how much of that is down to the team not performing creating a self-enforcing cycle... Anyway, while I'm less convinced about Caceres than Storm, to my mind, Storm at his best, is a strong challenger in his role.

And-so-on-and-so-forth... At the end of the day, we totally agree that we should be relying on blooding youth. Not only has that been effective for us but it is also what the league was supposed to be for.

It's important that we have a recruitment plan that goes beyond any given manager. Essentially we should have a TD who sets the agenda and has progression plans for the squad as a whole, with succession planning that ensures we always have new kids coming through. We should be avoiding signing external players wherever possible. Talented kids should be queuing around the block to sign with us, knowing that if they thrive and an overseas offer comes we'll take it, and that they'll be replaced as the next tooth in the shark's jaws comes forward.

THIS! Definitely!

 

[dibo]

Yeah, probably is an oversimplification; we each see where the other's coming from and fundamentally agree.

 

[nebakke]

Yeah, probably is an oversimplification; we each see where the other's coming from and fundamentally agree.

Need a smiley with us patting each other on the back and agreeing heartily