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Turbulence (then calm sailing, then turbulence) thread.

midfielder

Well-Known Member
May shed some light on what we are paying...

http://www.news.com.au/sport/footba...after-4m-upgrade/story-fndm8jzo-1226852039365

Adelaide United has been charged about $481,000 for 13 A-League games this season which is still the lowest rental among the eight other Australian-based clubs.

“It’s the best venue hiring deal in the A-League, with comparable franchises paying an average of $66,500 (excluding GST) per event day,’’ Kirchner said.

This seems to support the one million or thereabouts paid for the stadium hire ... not sure if this includes security or that's an add on...
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
So the number quoted earlier this year was $7,500 per event - safe to say that they've probably misplaced a decimal point and it's actually $75,000. Closing stands will make it cheaper for the three or four AFC CL games we have, but even still, 13 x $75k = 975k, so AFC CL wouldn't have to cost much to put us up over $1m.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
So the number quoted earlier this year was $7,500 per event - safe to say that they've probably misplaced a decimal point and it's actually $75,000. Closing stands will make it cheaper for the three or four AFC CL games we have, but even still, 13 x $75k = 975k, so AFC CL wouldn't have to cost much to put us up over $1m.


Just on this point and sorta out of left field ... but say outside derby matches should the top decks be closed ...
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Couldn't close western upper - platinum members and open-air corporates are up there. They're high value. Eastern upper maybe, but it's also the only thing close to shade for afternoon games, and some of the only shelter for games in the wet. It'd also force more people around to the end, far from food, beverages and facilities.
 

bikinigirl

Well-Known Member
Couldn't close western upper - platinum members and open-air corporates are up there. They're high value. Eastern upper maybe, but it's also the only thing close to shade for afternoon games, and some of the only shelter for games in the wet. It'd also force more people around to the end, far from food, beverages and facilities.

. hey ... some of us pay extra for our seats in the upper eastern too (they were platinum once upon a time) ... as well as boxes behind

. the best solution is to get higher attendances ... still ... but how?
 

VicMariner

Well-Known Member
Big Al mentioned in the 2014 AFC Champions League thread that our new CEO "Is keen to re-engage the fans". (page 15, post #285)
So if this guy is genuine and successful why should we not get crowds like season '07/'08 where we averaged 12,738?
The whole of management should see that as a target to beat.
Forget about closing stands.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
Trouble with a forum is no one on here actually knows whats going on.. I have always believed its a cost and money issue ... my reading of the tea leafs from a distance..

In broad figures we pay say 1 million for the stadium now and it would appear the council want more ...

North Sydney Council see the Mariners as an investment to get people back into North Sydney and a back of the envelope calculation seem to be saying $ 400, 000 . [Based on the stated figures of 3K to break even] so 13 games @ 3, 000 per game is 39K people @ say $10.00 after GST per ticket [this allows for free kids and seniors tickets less GST] ...

Manly have a huge carrot at Brookie in that federal government funding somewhere between 25 and 38 million could be made if we played their... meaning akin to Homebush it's almost in their interest to pay us to play there...

Also out of left field the ACT government had been trying to get an A-League team for yonks and have used cheap stadium rental as a carrot to FFA for a number of years ... add Canberra had a side in the old NSL ..

Then we have Saturday night, heaps of rain clouds but 7.5 K to a derby match on Saturday night and a derby match fighting for finals positions..

Interestingly reports in the media over the last couple of days about the West Tigers [RL] their seems to be little sorrow for them and either Wests take over or they could move to Perth... I mention this within the context of this thread to say when people don't see long term funding and being able to pay your way location / history / tradition seem to give way .. to what will pay the bills..

In this context and if my summary above is anywhere close to actual the ball is essentially in Gosford Council hands ...
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Hold up a sec.

Tigers have lost $2.7m over the past three years. They're in a market that is deeply established and hugely competitive, with limited new customers that can be brought in, with a business model that's frankly f**ked (three games at this traditional home, three games at this traditional home, four games at this cavern and two games at this cavern). The problem for them is less the losses than the fact that it's going to be bloody hard for them to address them. They've buggered up the club and now they're unlikely to be able to run the Tigers Club at Rozelle, hammering their incomes further. They're in a hole and digging harder still.

We're in a slightly different boat. We're in a market that is essentially new, with *vast* untapped potential in terms of new customers. We're in the establishment/growth phase, where clubs are still setting down roots in their markets.

One of the things that's happening for us (by that I mean all clubs collectively) is that media (and presumably corporate incomes roughly in line with that) are forming a greater slice of our total incomes - the TV deal for example has gone up $600k in the last season, and I've had conversations that indicate that our break even crowd at Bluetongue is now under 10k.

Our crowd average at present is 9,108. For what it's worth, take out the NSO game, we're at 9,305. If you take out NSO *and* the Friday nights against FTA, our average is 9,645. On Fridays we're clearly trading off FTA viewers against crowds. If that's smashing the bottom line around, then it's probably the prime target for the club to hit up NSO (where we can break even on much smaller crowds).

We need 18,135 for the WSW game for our Gosford crowds to average 10k, which now appears to be a break-even number. We drew 17,134 for the Round 1 game, so we're definitely at least an outside chance. Even still, we're not orders of magnitude away from it, even if form, weather and FTA have all conspired against us in different ways.

Given we're now likely to be closer to breaking even, and we've got sponsorship deals set in place for coming years (Bartercard are announced only to the end of this year, but we have Masterfoods and Westinghouse Solar to end of 2014/15, Gosford City Council to the end of 2015/16) we're looking outwardly healthier. Most important of all, our licence is now guaranteed out to 2034 - this gives an incentive to invest knowing that we have security. It means that we're more able to tolerate year to year bumps because there's a longer path marked out.

The club's public messaging has become more disciplined as well - less of Mad Uncle Mick's brainfarts and more of Wise Mr Stalder's sage advice. The club's books could probably do with a year off from Champions League football in 2015, and we can settle in for a slightly more 'normal' year.

Year after year our break-even crowd is dropping and our actual crowds are reasonably stable at over 9k. We've basically got to get through the next 3 years (out to the end of 2017/18) and to the next TV deal, and the earth will move again with expansion of clubs and another improvement to TV revenues to lock us in for the future.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
D

My Tigers example was simply to highlight when a team cannot find funding location / tradition / history seem to be over taken by who can pay ... I understand the differences between our clubs...

I believe our crowds would fall if we moved to either NSO or Brookie ... but as someone way back in history once said its the bottom line ... realising I have no idea of actual numbers but lets say for the debate we need 9K today at the CC to break even... and we need 5 K to break even at NSO ... and 2K to break even at Brookie ... and 3 K to break even in Canberra ...assume simply for the debate the new stadium lease requires we get 10 K to break even ....

At some point the variation in the numbers being throw around for stadium lease becomes and issue for a club who has an owner not willing to reach deep into his pocket ...

On this thread we seem to be assuming all these discussions about moving have nothing to do with Gosford council ...

I guess the point I was trying to demonstrate is we seem to have three councils [if you call the ACT gov a council] offering the use of their stadiums at a fraction of the cost we are incurring or will be charged by Gosford council .. deep down I think MC wants to stay on the Coast also I think he assumed the cost sort by the council for stadium rent or the Mariners holding the lease would be much less than what has transpired..

However it appears NS council and the ACT gov view a National Professional team playing at their stadiums will bring in money and adds to the general perception of their area.. Gosford council from what we can read see the stadium as a income earner ...

So where are the calls to local radio or letters to the Express Advocate asking the council the question about the stadium rental being in line with offers from NS council and ACT gov..

The old story about the guy who goes to the Shrink with a chicken standing on his head ... he lays down and the shrink takes his personal details down still with the chicken on his head ... the shrink is thinking this could be an interesting case .. so he finally says now what's the problem... the chicken suddenly speaks and says I can't get this bloke off my feet... the moral of the story is there are always two sides to any story...
 

bikinigirl

Well-Known Member
I really don't follow your argument.

. i think the argument is pretty simple

. if charlesworth is highly aggrieved by the rental deal at gosford and has better options elsewhere (whereby he may actually make money rather than lose money) ... eventually he may decide the ties to the coast aren't that strong
 

eenfish

Well-Known Member
It'd be a calculated risk moving the Mariners, though. Depends on what numbers he is punching in whether he takes the risk or not. We've made it fairly vocal that we don't like the idea of the move, most fans have agreed, and there hasn't been a shouting for a potential crowd except for local councils saying they'd like a team.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
. i think the argument is pretty simple

. if charlesworth is highly aggrieved by the rental deal at gosford and has better options elsewhere (whereby he may actually make money rather than lose money) ... eventually he may decide the ties to the coast aren't that strong
They're not options if FFA will refuse him permission to move. FFA simply won't allow him to move the club.
 

Wombat

Well-Known Member
f**k That shit.

Work with us and develop the club on the coast or f**k off.

The FFA have made it simple now so help us develop or f**k of back to Double Bay.

The foundation blocks are already there....easy to build from there if you have half a clue.

I have been on the coast for 11 years now and would not dream of living in Sydney again (although I still derive 70% of my main income from there).
 

sydmariner

Well-Known Member
f**k That shit.

Work with us and develop the club on the coast or f**k off.

The FFA have made it simple now so help us develop or f**k of back to Double Bay.

The foundation blocks are already there....easy to build from there if you have half a clue.

I have been on the coast for 11 years now and would not dream of living in Sydney again (although I still derive 70% of my main income from there).
:goodpost:
 

bikinigirl

Well-Known Member
They're not options if FFA will refuse him permission to move. FFA simply won't allow him to move the club.

. we have been over that before too ... a few 'ifs and buts' which shouldn't be considered simple. the FFA may be amenable under certain circumstances

. lets hope that things never get that bad before the ffa gets involved to help set things right
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
I really don't follow your argument.

Gosford council want $$$$$$

North Sydney Council want $$$$$$$ less a lot

Manly Council want $$$$$$$ less a lot

ACT wants $$$$$ less a huge amount ...

Agree re the FFA issues ...

The main point in my post is at what stage does Gosford Council become a big part of the debate .. rather than MC is a !!@@#### ...

Wombat agree re FFA and the coast I think the national teams coming to train at the COE show [to me anyway] FFA are trying to help ...
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Gosford council want $$$$$$

North Sydney Council want $$$$$$$ less a lot

Manly Council want $$$$$$$ less a lot

ACT wants $$$$$ less a huge amount ...

Agree re the FFA issues ...

The main point in my post is at what stage does Gosford Council become a big part of the debate .. rather than MC is a !!@@#### ...

Wombat agree re FFA and the coast I think the national teams coming to train at the COE show [to me anyway] FFA are trying to help ...
Middy - let me get this straight, are we talking about the same Gosford Council?
  • The same Gosford Council who are sponsors of the club to the end of 2015/16?
  • The same Gosford Council that had an open EOI process for people who wanted to take over the management of the stadium for which the Club elected to not bid?
  • The same Gosford Council with whom it seems we've done work to reduce costs for both regular matchdays *and* AFCCL matchdays?
  • The same Gosford Council whose venue makes up *maybe* $1 million of our probably around $6-8 million annual expenditure and who even if they cut their own throats could only save us maybe $500k?
I find it hard to believe that anyone could think Gosford Council are the problem.

As for alternatives:
  • NSO is *not* a viable option - the ground's not up to standard and won't be for years and FFA won't permit any club (let alone us) to move into a ground so close to SFC's home;
  • Manly is *not* a viable option - the ground's not up to standard and won't be for years and FFA won't permit any club (let alone us) to move into a ground so close to SFC's home, and;
  • the ACT is only a viable option if the FFA approve a move away from the Central Coast.
. we have been over that before too ... a few 'ifs and buts' which shouldn't be considered simple. the FFA may be amenable under certain circumstances

. lets hope that things never get that bad before the ffa gets involved to help set things right
FFA would also know that given they've been on the Central Coast for nearly 10 years, and the club has built a storied history and a connection with the community and fans. If they leave the Central Coast after nearly 10 years, they're basically salting the earth behind them - there's no returning.

For that reason, the 'ifs' would necessarily include running persistent and growing losses, an indifferent market and an unhelpful venue leading to there being neither any prospect of recovery nor any prospect that a buyer might be willing to come in.

Running a number of relatively small losses while business conditions are improving doesn't go close to ticking the boxes that would be required for the club to actually want to relocate or for FFA to allow it.
 

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