National Youth League Fixtures and Mariners youth team discussion

[Wombat]

Sully's comments when he was appointed: "This year is a transition year for our youth structure in regards to performance vs results. It’s crucial that we use the FNYL to implement our playing style, make sure the players understand the key principles associated with the Hyundai A-League team and physically develop those players.The PlayStation 4 NPL season will be where focus will be more on results, we will use that because there’s promotion/relegation where you need to win some games. There will be a higher focus on winning in that space than there necessarily will be in the FNYL which is purely about closing the gap and aligning with our Hyundai A-League team." https://www.ccmariners.com.au/news/mariners-youth-team-coaches-squad-fixtures

Sounds like Walmsley speak to me.

 

[pinklady]

I wouldn't say the gap has gotten closer though, Ryan Peterson played nearly the same amount of time as Wales has, and Wales was only given his opportunity because of injuries and Trent being away. Trent Buhagiar made his jump to the first team under Ben Cahn and he is arguably our most successful academy player in a while. Adam Berry moved from being an academy player to a first team player under Cahn. Kekeris is only being given an opportunity because Pain is injured and Kuipers because of Josh Rose's suspension. Steve Whyte made match day squads and the bench, Recce Papadimtros made match day squads, as did Brian Jamba during the Walmsley era. Cahn developed plenty, there aren't many players ready to jump straight up from academies around the country especially when we are often third or fourth choice in NSW.

Ryan Peterson made one appearance off the bench against Perth - Lachie Wales has now made 3 (one last season and two this year). Trent signed for the first team in Jan 2016 whilst playing for the NYL side under Joe Haywood. Adam Berry made his debut in February 2016 also after playing under Haywood (who is still an assistant under Sully). Kekeris has been training with the first team full time for over a month now. He was also an Australian Under 17 international before he came to the club. Steve Whyte had 5 seasons in the NYL (one with the Jets). Reece Papas was a youth international before coming to the club. Brian Jamba didn't make a first team appearance as he didn't want to jeopardise his US college scholarship.

Apart from Wales and Kekeris a lot of the NYL boys have had opportunities training with the first team so that in time, their progression will be a bit smoother.

 

[pinklady]

Your assumption was incorrect.
Cahn was sharfted due to nepotism....no other reason.

A bit off the mark even though the "nepotism" as you call it was a big talking point last year. Bringing SIX players from Queensland into the team and showing some favouritism to them didn't really endear him to the club heirachy. Having said that of the six, one is still with the NYL, three were offered spots this year but opted to return to QLD, one returned as he was overage and not offered a contract, and one remains here but has quit playing.

 

[Big Al]

Irrespective of the coach winning is an important skill to be learned. We have been loosing winnable games in the youth and late goals seem to be a constant.

Some skills are match smarts. People think having a good touch is important and it is but so is control of a game. Leadership to get the other kids to follow or the ability to say we are not playing out from the back in the last 5 mins when under pressure etc.
There seems to be a roboticness to all players these days. Also proper defence is alsonot being taught.

It’s also a big jump for the kids to first team. The system is letting them down there. The NPL team limit should be 23’s not 20 imo.

Also we need to get up to NPL 1 to help reduce that gap.

What 1 or 2 players per team make it each year and we have a team of 16 below ao it’s not unusual for these guys to get a look and not quite make it.

Also the 1st team has imports. So you’d hate to be a midfielder right now at the Mariners knowing established 1st teamers can’t get a run so what chance for a youth player. However a LB might not be quite as good but the lack of options gives them an opportunity.

So many variables. Interesting discussion though

 

[Woollybutt]

I wouldn't say the gap has gotten closer though, Ryan Peterson played nearly the same amount of time as Wales has, and Wales was only given his opportunity because of injuries and Trent being away. Trent Buhagiar made his jump to the first team under Ben Cahn and he is arguably our most successful academy player in a while. Adam Berry moved from being an academy player to a first team player under Cahn. Kekeris is only being given an opportunity because Pain is injured and Kuipers because of Josh Rose's suspension. Steve Whyte made match day squads and the bench, Recce Papadimtros made match day squads, as did Brian Jamba during the Walmsley era. Cahn developed plenty, there aren't many players ready to jump straight up from academies around the country especially when we are often third or fourth choice in NSW.

Good points, but I feel that other than Buhagiar none of those guys ever really looked like establishing themselves even as squad players. Years back we had guys like Fitzgerald, Duke, Bernie, Kwabena, Mallia, and to a lesser extent Nikas and even Sherlock going on to first team contracts with us or other A-League clubs, whereas none of these guys from recent seasons (Buhagiar aside) have gone on to anything much, so it does seem like the gap has gotten bigger and Cahn, for all his good points, wasn't able to address it. I appreciate that a lot of that will be because the standard of the A-League has improved and we're no longer nabbing the best talent from Westfields, but it's still the case that the club should be aiming to bridge that gap better. I don't think it's necessarily improved yet, but I do think there are some promising signs.

 

[Woollybutt]

Irrespective of the coach winning is an important skill to be learned. We have been loosing winnable games in the youth and late goals seem to be a constant.

Some skills are match smarts. People think having a good touch is important and it is but so is control of a game. Leadership to get the other kids to follow or the ability to say we are not playing out from the back in the last 5 mins when under pressure etc.
There seems to be a roboticness to all players these days. Also proper defence is alsonot being taught.

It’s also a big jump for the kids to first team. The system is letting them down there. The NPL team limit should be 23’s not 20 imo.

Also we need to get up to NPL 1 to help reduce that gap.

What 1 or 2 players per team make it each year and we have a team of 16 below ao it’s not unusual for these guys to get a look and not quite make it.

Also the 1st team has imports. So you’d hate to be a midfielder right now at the Mariners knowing established 1st teamers can’t get a run so what chance for a youth player. However a LB might not be quite as good but the lack of options gives them an opportunity.

So many variables. Interesting discussion though

I agree with a lot of that. I know in Germany there's an idea that youth teams need to develop a habit of winning, whereas somewhere like the Netherlands there's a stronger focus on technical and tactical development over results. With that said, I don't mind the idea that the NYL can be a time for experimentation and development while the NPL is a time to focus on results and learning that ability to grind out results, close out matches, leadership, defensive structure, etc. We'll have to wait and see if they can actually get those results of course, but I think it's a solid idea in principle. Fully agree that the system is letting them down. That was a problem with the old NYL structure, and they seem to have somehow made it worse.

 

[Woollybutt]

Your assumption was incorrect.
Cahn was sharfted due to nepotism....no other reason.

I vaguely remember the podcast sort of dancing around the reasons, but I can't remember ever seeing any real explanation. I think they mentioned something along the lines of it was Okon's decision, but was there any information about Okon's reasons? Is there any evidence of favouritism? Sully and Okon had never worked together had they, so why would he show favouritism to a guy he doesn't really know?

 

[Big Al]

Good points, but I feel that other than Buhagiar none of those guys ever really looked like establishing themselves even as squad players. Years back we had guys like Fitzgerald, Duke, Bernie, Kwabena, Mallia, and to a lesser extent Nikas and even Sherlock going on to first team contracts with us or other A-League clubs, whereas none of these guys from recent seasons (Buhagiar aside) have gone on to anything much, so it does seem like the gap has gotten bigger and Cahn, for all his good points, wasn't able to address it. I appreciate that a lot of that will be because the standard of the A-League has improved and we're no longer nabbing the best talent from Westfields, but it's still the case that the club should be aiming to bridge that gap better. I don't think it's necessarily improved yet, but I do think there are some promising signs.

All WSW kids prior to WSW.

The acedemy obviously has less WSW to pick but seems to becoming of a higher standard and priority over the last couple of years.

Also much like the Socceroos golden generation you can argue they were just a blessed generation that doesn’t come along all that often

 

[Big Al]

If CCU can get up through the grades then our 20+yr olds can have somewhere to progress if FFA is going to keep this stupid age restriction on the NPL team

 

[Big Al]

I agree with a lot of that. I know in Germany there's an idea that youth teams need to develop a habit of winning, whereas somewhere like the Netherlands there's a stronger focus on technical and tactical development over results. With that said, I don't mind the idea that the NYL can be a time for experimentation and development while the NPL is a time to focus on results and learning that ability to grind out results, close out matches, leadership, defensive structure, etc. We'll have to wait and see if they can actually get those results of course, but I think it's a solid idea in principle. Fully agree that the system is letting them down. That was a problem with the old NYL structure, and they seem to have somehow made it worse.

Germans currently a top team in the world.
Netherlands missed the world cup and on the slide.
We follow Netherlands curriculum.
Bit simplistic I know and the dutch still produce good players just we might be following a system that was excellent 10yrs ago and not the best right now

 

[Wombat]

Dutch have been second rate for a long time.

 

[Wombat]

A bit off the mark even though the "nepotism" as you call it was a big talking point last year. Bringing SIX players from Queensland into the team and showing some favouritism to them didn't really endear him to the club heirachy. Having said that of the six, one is still with the NYL, three were offered spots this year but opted to return to QLD, one returned as he was overage and not offered a contract, and one remains here but has quit playing.

So that was the reason he was gone. He used players he had history with instead of local talent.
Shame because they looked more organised and well drilled under Ben than our 1st 11 do under Paul and Ivan.

 

[pinklady]

So that was the reason he was gone. He used players he had history with instead of local talent.
Shame because they looked more organised and well drilled under Ben than our 1st 11 do under Paul and Ivan.

Agree with the more organised and well drilled. Ben actually had more local boys in the NYL than there are this year. 5 as opposed to only 3 this year.

 

[Woollybutt]

I meant those examples as extremes, but I appreciate that they’re not great ones given recent international results! Obviously it differs from club to club within those countries, but even when the Netherlands have struggled at international level they’ve still produced top players and especially top coaches, which is pretty impressive for a country of 17 million. Lots of other clubs and countries have adopted the Dutch approach to development, such as Iceland. I’m not a big fan of the national curriculum, and I’d much prefer Australia to invest in high quality coaching (like Iceland) and reducing the cost of football participation than just to take a few aspects of the Dutch system, but I stand by the fact that a focus on development rather than results at youth level creates better footballers.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that the purpose of a youth system is to produce professional players, and our system has been underperforming in this regard for a little while for a range of reasons (including the emergence of WSW). Cahn came in and put together a good side and got some strong results, but he didn’t seem to make much progress in regard to bridging the gap between youth and first team. I think Cahn could do a great job as a manager somewhere, but youth coaches need to be judged by different criteria. No talented young player is going to choose a youth system based on whether they won the NYL, they’ll pick based on the system and the coaches’ record of development and whether there’s a viable path to professional football. Sully and Haywood may not be good first team coaches, but that doesn’t mean they’re not good youth coaches. At the end of the NPL season we may look back and say they did a terrible job, but by we may also look back and say they had good results when it mattered and they helped develop Kekeris and Wales into genuine A-League prospects. It’s just too early to evaluate the decision to replace Cahn with Sully.

 

[Coast Football Ramble]

I vaguely remember the podcast sort of dancing around the reasons, but I can't remember ever seeing any real explanation. I think they mentioned something along the lines of it was Okon's decision, but was there any information about Okon's reasons? Is there any evidence of favouritism? Sully and Okon had never worked together had they, so why would he show favouritism to a guy he doesn't really know?

We'll elaborate on it one day.

 

[Gratis]

I've been told Sully is very prescriptive with little room for the youngings to go with their gut

 

[Timmah]

3-1 loss to wrap things up yesterday at Lambert Park v Sydney FC.

One round left but we're the team on a bye this coming weekend.

Focus shifts to NPL now i guess...

 

[Wombat]

So a massive decline this year. Who could have predicted that LOL.

 

[bikinigirl]

I've been told Sully is very prescriptive with little room for the youngings to go with their gut

. so they are following the first team philosophy

 

[Wombat]

. so they are following the first team philosophy

What........... as in,,,,,,,,,, turn back. turn back turn back.
Only one player to beat....turn it back to the keeper........its so smar..........t and why we are in the bottom 3