More relocation chat/brawling

[nebakke]

Acknowledged, this is a sore spot for me, but we seem to have a huge disconnect between those who live and breathe the game and the more casual supporters... With the first lot constantly chiding the second for not being like them.
For mine personally, we bought a membership for the whole family (yep, all three of us! ) knowing full well that we wouldn't make it to the majority of the home games because of other commitments, bedtimes etc. etc.... I support the team, proudly, I happily engage in discussions and sledging sessions with the mushrooms at work who believe that either Sydney team is the way to go, I spend my hard earned on merchandise etc. etc.... And again, I bought a membership even though financially It'd probably have been smarter to just buy the tickets when I get to go... But the club put out the call for support and wanted to drive the memberships.
So... I don't understand the F*****G issue... I've paid for my seat, the club's gotten the money for me going to the game, whether I go or not, yet I still cop abuse for not showing and it's starting to p*** me off. As we discussed in the thread around the WSW game, there's even an option for the club to actually sell the same seat twice, if they required members to notify them of when they will/won't be going, yet somehow I'm still the bad guy...

So in conclusion... I am actually quite grateful to MC, I love having the team on the coast, I support the team as best I can, which is why I don't want it to move... Now... Rather than focusing on the attendances, how about they start looking into how to convert some of those casuals who obviously show up at many of the games, into members who pay for more games than they show up to?

 

[VicMariner]

Crowds are not the only way for a club to make money. As has been said per capita support is already excellent.
Can more be found from sponsorship? CCM is one of the most successful teams, plays regularly in Asia and is only likely to increase it's profile in the years ahead. There is high value there, make the most of it.

Merchandise. The club shop falls well behind other clubs. This is a missed opportunity. More team gear sold means more gear seen in the community which in turn increases brand awareness thus adding value to sponsorship.

Non ticketed memberships. Interest in sport does not end 20km from the coast. Travel to any country town and you will see shirts, caps and bumper stickers for teams hundreds of kilometers away. Mariners, a regional club, can represent regional people up against the big city teams. Why shouldn't Mariners gear be seen prominently around regional areas? Country people who like football are going to pick a team. We should try and make sure it is the Mariners. It wouldn't be a cash cow but more membership money, more merchandise money and increased brand awareness further pushing up the sponsorship dollar.

There is no single silver bullet but a range of revenue adds up. Attendance is not everything.

 

[Big Al]

Wow we are a butch of hussies.

Article said Turnball signed it & MC didn't know anything about it.

Could be more a political powerplay to get an upgrade much like NSO. They won't upgrade Brookie just for the sea-eagles.

It's year away as well.

 

[bikinigirl]

. geez nebakke don't you start looking at things practically ... you are absolutely right

. ancient - with all due respect - it may be time to look at things from a slightly different perspective too - i understand your point about saturation on the coast but i just don't know if it is true

. most (if not all) are grateful for what mike has done ... they are just cautious because of the things that he keeps saying - whether reported incorrectly, taken out of context or whatever it doesn't matter ... it keeps happening ... and if there is a denial (successful or not), it comes from a different source. for those that have spoken to him or those that are cynical ... there is cause for concern

. as for growing the supporter base (and i have said this before) ... mike is interested in getting more people to the games - how realistic is this?

. if he wants 2,000 more people at a game that are not 'on' the coast ... that is a huge ask. if they wanted to come to the games they would be along with the infamous 20%. if they only come to half the games you now need another 4,000 people committed to coming from beyond the coast. not only do i think that is unrealistic i think it will cost huge amounts of time, effort and money to get them in and keep them in ... year after year. money, time and effort that the club has been unable or unwilling to invest in the coast - so how does that happen efficiently?

. i don't think people on here are against mike or growing the supporter base beyond the coast ... it is just a matter of how it is done and what people think might or might not work. most agree the suggestions so far will not work and feel that the time, money and effort put in to drawing more members from outside the coast would be better spent 'on' the coast

. just as you say people should stop being fickle ... the owner needs to stop appearing fickle in public. 'threats' of the team dying piss off the loyal and committed, discourage the casuals and probably annoy the 'out-of-towners' even more

. i still think that his opinion is: because he has bought the best team in the comp the supporters will come and watch them live and if he moves games more will fall in love with the best team in the league and become members and attend every game - complete bullshit if that is even close to the thinking

. taking one, two or three games away from the coast ... may be enough to actually satisfy the 'out-of-towners' and they then become the only games they attend ... no need to travel every second week. heaven forbid, it may actually make them fans of the game ... but practicalities dictate that they then follow another team in sydney

. people (generally) are not telling mike to piss off ... they are warning him to be careful with how he handles the supporter base his predecessors have worked so hard to build. as mentioned above ... if we have another canberra, danny or gf publicity debacle - IT MAY BE THE END

. it is not too long a bow to draw that those 'protesting' past 'errors' were starting to come back to the fold ... but have been turned off again by the shit-storm of the last couple of weeks. for the most part ... those fickle/casual supporters are not those that post on this forum

 

[dibo]

This can be the brawling thread, leave the game thread to talk about the game.

 

[localpom]

I think a lot of people here need to realise we are lucky to have a team.

It is not a right, it is a privilege and it is a result of hard work and investment by others.

I am sick of the "if I don't get my way I will....." attitude.

If the support for this most successful club is fickle after 9 seasons, it will simply not survive.

Toughen up stop whinging and support your team.

I'm with Ancient on this one. Every one has a right to voice an opinion and get pissed off once in a while. But....we are lucky to have a football club on the Coast and people not going to games because the have some minor issue isn't going to help. Case in point...at the weekend i saw a guy in an old Mariners jersey and asked him if he was going to the game. He said he hadn't been in years as he had his loudspeaker confiscated by security and hadn't been back since. I think i talked him round and said the atmosphere was great these days. Did feel like telling him to stop acting like baby and harden up but that probably wouldn't have helped. Have heard various other trivial complaints that people get so emotional about. I'm not saying take it all on the chin, if you have a genuine issue then complain but still get along and support your team.

 

[Big Al]

Look we have a bloke like Wombat who gives his all to get casuals to the game & they dessert him regularly. It's to cold & wet, I can't sit with you, It's to expensive.

It's a hard job to convert those half arsed whats in it for me or i'll only watch the big games type to regular attendees.

The crowd was disappointing on Sat for a perfect night but looked fuller than 10k. I was surprised with the figure. Looked fuller than the Adelaide game + the SFC fans when Adelaide had none.

Also the bad performance last week may have had a few go I'll give it a miss with SFC winning 4 in a row. The crowd really seemed to excite the boys & as Mossy said 10k+ is required & the atmosphere is great when it is & the boys love it. The boys were up from 1st minute which hasn't been the case.

 

[dibo]

The people *here* are passionate about the club. I've been a fan since day one, and I've been to nearly every game in Gosford, the vast majority in NSW and I've travelled interstate several times to watch my club play.

I've put my view pretty clearly a number of times on here, but Ancient Mariner seems to hold the view that we should be grateful for MC coming in on a big white horse, accept we're too small for an A-League club of our own and cop whatever comes next.

I've put questions out there that I feel need answering before we consider going chasing fans in other markets that are clearly in need of (but not getting) an answer.

See, there's a step or two that is missing here.

1. Redefine Central Coast to suit your argument.
2. Move indeterminate number of games to NSO (now, fortunately for your argument, part of the Central Coast)
...
x-1. Fan base grows enormously.
x. PROFIT!!!

Between step 2 and step x-1, there's this mysterious gap.

I don't know what happens here, presumably all of us small town hicks learn our place and shut up and cop what's good for us, and presumably everyone in the northern suburbs of Sydney southern Central Coast develop a deep and abiding passion for a region that apparently they've lived in all along and nobody notices that it's a bloody stupid idea and nobody would ever get excited for a team that operates from a caravan and calls whatever patch of grass it happens to pull up on this weekend home.

Even if the Central Coast is too small*, there's nothing that makes anything from a token nod to the northern suburbs of Sydney southern Central Coast up to a full on part-time tenancy a solution.

There's no argument for why people who like the Mariners already aren't already going to games.

There's no argument for why people who don't already like the Mariners will jump on and haven't already jumped on one of the two clubs already in Sydney.

There's no argument for why it won't be a crushing blow to the morale and attachment for those unfortunate bunch of two-bit hicks who live and breathe the Central Coast from their homes on the actual Central Coast.

It's just ABC - Another Brainfart from Charlesworth.


*Something that is not yet convincingly argued by anyone, so I'm not at all willing to concede it.

There's no convincing argument put.

The closest we come is that on a per-capita basis we're close to saturation* and so if that's not enough then we can never be big enough.

If that argument were true, then there should never have been a club in Gosford.

I think this ignores two massive factors. The first is that the Central Coast's population is growing, the second is that the Mariners can/should be part of the growth and be the emblem of the region. The marquee brand to which all other Central Coast brands want to be attached. Our ambassadors across the country and abroad.

There's actually a third factor that I've alluded to in the past.

Does anyone seriously think that the FFA, having fought and struggled to establish and then maintain a foothold on the Central Coast, is going to let it be diluted and eroded by brainfarts like this? It's their licence, they'll tell us where we can play.

*Again, not something I'm willing to concede either - there are vastly more people who *don't* go to games than those that do.

 

[scottmac]

I believe the FFA shield be looking at funding the club in excess of the next TV agreement to compensate for the fact that we are from a small regional area & don't attract the sponsorship or crowd of larger areas.

 

[midfielder]

Just adding to the future with an eye to the past...

The Hunter region has been a football heartland [agreed shared with RL] Newcastle has been a RL heartland [shared with Football] ... but the Hunter / Newcastle region has always been a very strong football area and has always received plenty of good press...

The Central Coast & Lake Macquarie have always been RL heart lands with football being a played sport...

I read this roughly two years ago and some of it may be hyped but lets assume its growth predictions are half right...

The Jets and us share three broad areas...
Hunter / Newcastle population 450 K
Lake Macquarie 220 K
Central Coast 290 K

A combined population of 960 K for two teams ... in 30 years the report said this would grow to 1.5 million with most of this growth on the CC...

The area to our immediate south say with 5 Kls of Hornsby maybe 200, 00 as well who are closer to Bluetounge [time wise] than either Parra or Moore Park...

In the future as the area around Hornsby grows, and the expected increase in the CC & sharing Lake Macquarie with the Jets ... we could be looking at population 800 to 900 K ...

As I see it we have three population centres all similar in size...

Lake Macquarie 220K
CC 290K
NS/ Hornsby 200 K

We share LM with the Jets & NS with SFC & WSW ...MC I guess is looking at the NS part recently but for me playing in either NSO or Brokevale is just as far as Bluetounge...

Long term say 15 years..

Lake Macquarie .... 270 K
CC .... 370
NS / Hornsby ... 250 K

So close to 900 K.... but only the CC part to ourselves ... how to bring in the NS & LM folk is key plus keeping the CC folk happy .. also the population demographics of all these regions is changing with younger families moving in...

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Dibo, your steps are simplistic and not what I am expecting. I am not suggesting a jump from 2 to x.1.

I am of the opinion there is a market in the North of Sydney (especially Gladesville-Hornsby, with which the club has close links, and Kuringai Hornsby Associations), that should be tested.

I do not think one game at NSO will achieve this, I would prefer to see three games a season for 3 seasons and then an appraisal made.

I do not wish the club to move from the Central Coast nor do I think it will unless it becomes a basket case (eg Fury, Gold Coast, NZ Knights), and if it becomes a basket case the FFA could let us go.

Personally, I would prefer every game to be played at Bluetongue, NSO has too many problems (parking, oval shape, cricket pitch).

I am very thankful for MC rescuing the club and think others should be as well. I hate to think where we could be now if he did not, I do not have your confidence in the FFA taking us on. I have seen too many teams in the old NSL and rugby league comps who thought they were bullet proof.

By many arguments we have been the most successful club in the A-League, but after eight and a half seasons still struggle (10k at home against SFC, on a good night is struggling) to get enough home fans to break even on game day costs and still struggle for sponsorship.

My argument is unless we try we will never find out if we can make the step from 2 to x.1.

My beef is with the many who are ready to spit the dummy if the owners dare do anything with "their" team. My beef is with those who are prepared to withold support if everything does not go their own way.
My beef is with those with the conspiracy theorists who are suggesting that this is the first step in taking the Mariners away from the Central Coast.
My beef is with those who would pile shit on an owner who has pulled us out of it and wants to explore ways to make us stronger.
eg "f**k the owner.....he needs to take his dick out of his hand when he thinks or speaks."
My beef are with those who will not get behind the club and at least give it a try.

I hope this provides an answer for you Dibo.
I think it is clear where I stand and where I am coming from.

 

[dibo]

The NSO argument boils down to "we have to do something, so why not try this?"

There are problems though.

1. If we are to "see three games a season for 3 seasons and then an appraisal made", what appraisal is to be made unless this is exactly what you say it is not, i.e. "the first step in taking the Mariners away from the Central Coast"? If this isn't about a potential move, what exactly is being appraised? It presupposes that this will be a success (or else you wouldn't even try it), which leads me on to the next question (which are more rhetorical questions for the club, should they turn out to be serious)...
2. What defines success here?
   1. What crowds do the NSO games have to draw for this to be a win?
   2. How many additional members do we need to get for this to be a win?
   3. What level of loss of support in Gosford is acceptable, or are we to assume that the Central Coast community will be unaffected or even boosted by taking games away?
3. Why is this a better option than:
   1. Increased investment in publicity, marketing and community engagement?
   2. Increased investment in players (i.e. marquees)?
   3. Revising ticket prices to better target a 'sweet spot' - it's possible that a small reduction from $20 for regular games and $24 for premium matches might positively affect demand?
4. If the gossip turns out to be true and we're considering taking games to places other than NSO (favourites seem to be trying Canberra again and even trying Tasmania seem to be the favourites), what could the possible benefits be?
5. Lastly, if we're not doing enough right now on the Central Coast in terms of crowds, revenue, etc., what *do* we have to do to keep the club 100% on the Central Coast?
   1. How big do our crowds need to be?
   2. How much revenue do we need to drive?
   3. How much do we need to hit up in sponsorships?
   4. Can any of the three levels of government assist?

We're not chumps. We're not stupid. We're not hicks. We know if there's a problem it needs to be fixed, but taking games to NSO is a conclusion in desperate need of an argument. I've taken particular issue with your posts AM, but it's not up to you to sell the idea, it's up to the club. If they're going to propose it seriously, they are going to need to lay out the reasons why or they are going to have a backlash.

 

[midfielder]

My beef is with the many who are ready to spit the dummy if the owners dare do anything with "their" team. My beef is with those who are prepared to withold support if everything does not go their own way.
My beef is with those with the conspiracy theorists who are suggesting that this is the first step in taking the Mariners away from the Central Coast.
My beef is with those who would pile shit on an owner who has pulled us out of it and wants to explore ways to make us stronger.
eg "f**k the owner.....he needs to take his dick out of his hand when he thinks or speaks."
My beef are with those who will not get behind the club and at least give it a try.

Well said...

As I have mentioned before he seems to be the kinda guy who pulls, pushes and prods at what is being done and can we improve it ... I would rather this type of owner than a one who saw the status que and said nothing can change...

I mentioned in the RD 9 SFC V Mariners thread ... a little 10 to 12 K stadium at the COE if we find someone to build it for us would be perfect IMO ....

 

[midfielder]

The NSO argument boils down to "we have to do something, so why not try this?"

There are problems though.

1. If we are to "see three games a season for 3 seasons and then an appraisal made", what appraisal is to be made unless this is exactly what you say it is not, i.e. "the first step in taking the Mariners away from the Central Coast"? If this isn't about a potential move, what exactly is being appraised? It presupposes that this will be a success (or else you wouldn't even try it), which leads me on to the next question (which are more rhetorical questions for the club, should they turn out to be serious)...
2. What defines success here?
   1. What crowds do the NSO games have to draw for this to be a win?
   2. How many additional members do we need to get for this to be a win?
   3. What level of loss of support in Gosford is acceptable, or are we to assume that the Central Coast community will be unaffected or even boosted by taking games away?
3. Why is this a better option than:
   1. Increased investment in publicity, marketing and community engagement?
   2. Increased investment in players (i.e. marquees)?
   3. Revising ticket prices to better target a 'sweet spot' - it's possible that a small reduction from $20 for regular games and $24 for premium matches might positively affect demand?
4. If the gossip turns out to be true and we're considering taking games to places other than NSO (favourites seem to be trying Canberra again and even trying Tasmania seem to be the favourites), what could the possible benefits be?
5. Lastly, if we're not doing enough right now on the Central Coast in terms of crowds, revenue, etc., what *do* we have to do to keep the club 100% on the Central Coast?
   1. How big do our crowds need to be?
   2. How much revenue do we need to drive?
   3. How much do we need to hit up in sponsorships?
   4. Can any of the three levels of government assist?

We're not chumps. We're not stupid. We're not hicks. We know if there's a problem it needs to be fixed, but taking games to NSO is a conclusion in desperate need of an argument. I've taken particular issue with your posts AM, but it's not up to you to sell the idea, it's up to the club. If they're going to propose it seriously, they are going to need to lay out the reasons why or they are going to have a backlash.

AM

Dibo is right in saying the clubs need to explain the pro's & con's.... the other issue is we are a mid table size in crowds ... normally beating PG, AU, Heart & Nix's... imagine how their management must be feeling...

As I tried to show in an earlier post we have 3 general population centres ... The CC, Lake Maxquarie & Northe Sydney around Hornsby ... once you past Pennant Hills, Ryde Road done the Pacific Highway getting new fans when SFC & WSW are in the same market is hard and SFC claim 20% of their members come from the general North Sydney North Shore area...

We share Lake Macquarie with the Jets, who get heaps of great press with the Newcastle Herald and Newcastle radio and have done so for 50 years...

For me growing market share in our two out lying say boarder areas is possible especially Lake Macquarie or the southern part of it anyway.. Same with Hornsby / Normanhurst ...

The Northern Eagles still hangs around and CC folk do not want to be taken for granted .... this is a sensitive issue and its better if everybody is on side and pulling in the same direction ... pro-announcements made from on high will not work on the Coast ...

However the reaction of some is a concern like someone posted a few months back I will never return as long as Reddy is the keeper ...

I think MC will take us into his concerns and wishes over time... I cannot help thinking [maybe it's just me] that part of all this relates to the cost of stadium hire ... and maybe a little bonus from FFA from the WC money...

 

[nebakke]

One thing that strikes me, is the claims that you should blindly support your team, while the owners apparently can do whatever they want with _THEIR_ team. So me, being a supporter isn't the kind of give-and-take relationship where I give and they take my money... It's more symbiotic than that.
Football isn't my primary sport, it's not really the secondary sport, it's the primary choice that I have in Australia - really... But CCM is my primary club. That is not a choice that I was guided or forced to, that is one that I was compelled to, heart and mind. If the factors that compelled me to chose the club disappear, it becomes less compelling, nice and simple.
If I followed purely for success, I would probably pick someone like Roar or Vic, God forbid. I'm no sheep... At least I try not to be one - so I won't be lead to support a team that no longer compels me, plenty of teams play a relatively interesting brand of football, there are even teams who talk nicely about youth development etc... But there's only one CCM... The day they are permanently relocated, they cease being that. At that point, I probably stop giving them money and find something/one else to spend my money on.
So, if you want to argue that MC and the other owners have a right to do what they want/can to make their teams profitable, then you are also implicitly arguing that I, as a supporter and effectively a consumer, have every right to complain and respond when they take these actions... Free-market for them and supporter-shame for us is not fair or feasible in the long run.

Once that's said, I feel that I should, once again, mention that I am actually quite grateful to MC and I am hopeful that the confusion will go away over the next couple of months, indeed I'm dealy hoping that we can get through a season without rumours about players not getting paid and the club going bust, that'd be a nice change. But it's the fact that MC's buy-in to the club last year, lead me to date to hope that we would see a season or two of financial stability, that has also lead to the disappointment with the perceived instability that we've seen this far.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Off topic a bit but I find it interesting that now we are getting probably the best communications with the club, we are having arguments about communications.

I remember apart from the first season when we helped on the fans day the club did not want to know us.

We did get a table at the presentation dinner but were not allowed to make our presentation on the stage.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I've taken particular issue with your posts AM, but it's not up to you to sell the idea, it's up to the club. If they're going to propose it seriously, they are going to need to lay out the reasons why or they are going to have a backlash.

Maybe when it is going to be proposed seriously we will then see the club start to lay out reasons.

Unfortunately like most things to do with football, leaks occur well before plans are anywhere near finalised, Which leads to lots of uninformed discussion.

I have no wish nor intention to be an apologist for the club, I just like the idea of getting after an untapped bunch of fans. If you have the numbers of followers of the other problems we have(sponsorships, relative cost of ground, etc.) will take care of themselves.

I am also a believer in "spending your political capital and taking risks to move forward"

 

[pjennings]

And you think if we had been premiers last year it would have been at Bluetongue?

Dream on.

I didn't say that or anything like it. Qld was an interstate team and would not necessarily bring hordes and WSW was 60 minutes away with a passionate supporter base and would bring hordes - but feel free to compare apples with oranges. What Lyall did concede was that the FFA missed the chance in 2008 to lock in supporters for the long term and turned away people. This cost the owners real money and by extension has probably led to our money problems over the years.

The point was and still is 'the latest fracas may lead to a similar erosion of our fan base. With the size of our population the Mariners are not in the position to frighten supporters.'

This time though the damage is being self-inflicted and the owners have no-one to blame but themselves if they destroy the goodwill they have. A clear, concise and consistent message that informs the membership what is happening and why rather than ham-fisted reactive responses is what is needed. Members are sick of reading doom and gloom articles in the paper. The Mariners need to tell the members what they are doing and why they are doing it in regards to home games. The interview with the acting GM is the type of thing that is needed. However, it should happen before the mainstream media article - not after.

 

[FFC Mariner]

A lot of the debate is reasoned, rational and well structured. It reflects people applying logic, commercial strategy and business acumen.

Everything the club haven't got right since Gorman left in my view. Look at WSW, bigger base but he just applied the lessons he learned on the Coast with backing and a clear strategy.

Hire the right GM, get a f**king plan and go and do business.

 

[Wombat]

No, I do not favour relocation.
I am in favour of our owners exploring every option available to increasing the supporter base.
I am sick of fickle supporters who have tantrums every time some new option is being explored.

And I am sick of this sort of lack of respect shown to someone who saved our bacon last year.

"f**k the owner.....he needs to take his dick out of his hand when he thinks or speaks."

This from one who did not renew his membership because the manager had the temerity to drop his favourite player.

Temerity....lol.

I make my own decisions.....unlike some of the sheep here. It wasn't that he was my fav player....it was the fact he was our best player.
The club still got my money...or the settlers did with the free tickets for grog promo.
I like that you are going against the tide here but.....