Train talk

[Marinerchick]

I've been catching the Newcastle - Central trains for the last 20 years every working day, and many weekend and actually can't find too much wrong, except overcrowding. When people complain of all the problems I wonder what line they are on! 

I'm old enough to remember soot in the eyes from steam trains, and freezing cold trips to Dubbo sleeping on the floors with all the other school kids going home to the country on hols.

I'll let you know comparisons once I've tried ViaRail Canada, and the TGV in France.

Thankyou kevrenor im not the only one who thinks the newcastle- central trains are packed as i get them to and from school on a daily basis and they really need to put more carriages its seriously not fair that  were always stuck standing when one person takes up to 8 seats it sucks!

they temporaily had a 4 carriage but then  they took it away its so stupid because by the time the train gets to booragul its always full of kids from broadmedow =|

 

[David Votoupal]

Yes but the difference is, overseas people are used to that sort of crowding on a metro. We generally aren't, and would prefer a seat if we can find a vacant one.

Train travel abroad isn't always cheap, in relative terms, but in terms of value for money you get better return. In Russia, though, the low price/km is quite remarkable considering some really good services are offered, like genuinely intercontinetal trains. Japan, foreigners can get a JR Pass which alleviates some of the costs of travelling.

 

[dibo]

Yes but the difference is, overseas people are used to that sort of crowding on a metro. We generally aren't, and would prefer a seat if we can find a vacant one.

Train travel abroad isn't always cheap, in relative terms, but in terms of value for money you get better return. In Russia, though, the low price/km is quite remarkable considering some really good services are offered, like genuinely intercontinetal trains. Japan, foreigners can get a JR Pass which alleviates some of the costs of travelling.

Russia's economy is a basketcase - I wouldn't be comparing against them for value because there's a lot going on below the waterline there.

I'm all in favour of metros (or U-Bahnen), but they don't work over long distances. For that we need something more like an S-Bahn - i.e. what we've got. They get crowded in peaks, but that's not really a surprise. They're meant to operate at close to capacity at peak times. If they don't we're wasting money.

The notion of 'value for money' could do with some fleshing out DV. How do you measure it? Without some way to objectively measure it, how do we know it is better in other countries than here?

 

[scottmac]

The only problem i found on cityrail trains commuting from Gosford to Central each day for ten years, was the bucket load of c**ts that did it with me.
People make the journey miserable, and reduce estimations of the service through assosciation. Overall we have a very good service, (i can say that now, i live in Sydney and have not done the commute for 6 years, but had you asked me 10 years ago...........) if it wasn't for pricks taking up seats with bags, snoring, fighting, stinking, passing out, vomiting, OD'ing, changing nappies, talking loud enough on the phone for everyone to hear etc etc etc.....

Do you see what i am getting at. I can handle the lateness, the standing, the cost, but f**k me the people shit me.

 

[bulldogmariner]

Can confirm that the S-Bahn is great. I stayed in Munich for 6 weeks during 2006 World Cup and used the S-Bahn daily to get out to the Olympic Stadium and Alliance Arena to watch football. When heading out to the venues and coming back to the city these trains as you would expect were crowded. But they ran so consistantly everyone was pretty comfortable on the train and they were so clean.
I since have been back to Munich and again the trains were busy during peak however they ran on time and also frequently that there is enough room and space for all travellers even those with large backpacks.

 

[Paolo]

+1 to scotts sentiments.

I have no issues with the trains its the people that shit me. Very happy that I no longer commute and work 5 mins from home

 

[David Votoupal]

The notion of 'value for money' could do with some fleshing out DV. How do you measure it? Without some way to objectively measure it, how do we know it is better in other countries than here?

Quite simply, quality of services for the money you pay for it. When you pay for the Indian Pacific, Ghan or Sunlander, you get value for money because you know you get a high quality service. Same with long-distance or regional rail services in most countries.

CityRail represents poor value because compared to similar types of service worldwide, it lags well behind for efficiency, punctuality and cleanliness.

 

[dibo]

The notion of 'value for money' could do with some fleshing out DV. How do you measure it? Without some way to objectively measure it, how do we know it is better in other countries than here?

Quite simply, quality of services for the money you pay for it. When you pay for the Indian Pacific, Ghan or Sunlander, you get value for money because you know you get a high quality service. Same with long-distance or regional rail services in most countries.

CityRail represents poor value because compared to similar types of service worldwide, it lags well behind for efficiency, punctuality and cleanliness.

but you haven't addressed how the systems overseas solve a different problem and are more expensive.

Our suburban network practically is a regional system, simply because of the distances covered. Compare apples with apples.

Yes and even by those standards, it still fails miserably.

Not only are Japan's trains punctual, the comfort the ordinary regional trains can provide is even better- then again if it's "Limited Express" service with First Class available it's another level.

How do you define 'fails miserably'? It's very easy to throw brickbats, but what criteria are you setting?

Bear in mind that the Japanese have poured megabillions into infrastructure in a way that we don't have the economic scale to achieve. Also bear in mind the difference in population densities that guarantee a level of patronage over all distances greater than we can muster. Also, how much do those trains cost, and what's the comparison with cost and convenience of using cars? If cars are either prohibitively expensive or inconvenient, then more people will use trains. Here, cars are neither, so the number of people using cars is higher and the level of cost or inconvenience that causes people to give up on trains and go to cars is lower.

We aren't Japan, Europe or even the USA. We are Australia, with a peculiar way of setting up our cities and ludicrously low population density both within and between our cities. It's not well suited to public transport. This isn't saying we shouldn't invest and expect more, it's saying that we should be realistic when talking about what we can achieve.

So how do you propose that we achieve the same levels of service as overseas while overcoming the issues of low population density and the relatively higher attractiveness of driving?

I think that without first seriously boosting population density, public transport is either an intractable problem or doing pretty well given the circumstances (depending on your outlook).

 

[FFC Mariner]

Bring back 1st class carriages..........

 

[dibo]

Bring back 1st class carriages..........

that people won't use, because they're driving to work instead.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Of course if rail travel/public transport was tax deductible to get to work.........

Would require a slight change to the FBT rules but would demonstrate a commitment to public transport wouldnt it?

 

[dibo]

Of course if rail travel/public transport was tax deductible to get to work.........

Would require a slight change to the FBT rules but would demonstrate a commitment to public transport wouldnt it?

We already subsidise public transport to the tune of billions per year. The fact that it's competitive with cars at present is testament to that. FBT or income tax concessions would simply increase the subsidy. If we increase the subsidy, the direct opportunity cost is the money no longer available for transport infrastructure investment.

I'm of the view that that is a perfectly fine idea to debate and I reckon that if it were thrown out there frankly and openly, there'd be a good discussion of how we do expect governments to handle and fund public transport. Any commitment of funds has a cost (often crossing portfolios, as increased investment here usually means a decrease over there) and the costs and benefits need to be explored properly.

I suspect however that it's much easier for politicians and most of all the media to complain about how crap it all is and lament the lack of investment and forward planning but if a proposed solution costs a single red cent or will take longer than two weeks then it goes in the too hard basket.

 

[David Votoupal]

Bring back 1st class carriages..........

Like what we see on these... http://www.jr-odekake.net/train/category/train.html

and these: http://www.jrhokkaido.co.jp/train/photo.html

 

[serious14]

First class on the Beijing-Tianjin express isn't too bad....

 

[kanewillow]

trains are awesome

 

[dru]

If we are talking about totally impractical trains for our population spread how about maglev 


Now for a sensible suggestion how about increasing the size of platforms to handle longer trains during peak service period, depending on the country you end up with inta suburban trains that are up to 14 carriages long. Yes rolling stock will need to be stored for the rest of the time but would allow a greater number of people to travel during these times.

TBF we have some of the better space efficient carriages I have seen, can't think of any double deck carriages anywhere else in the world.

First class on the Beijing-Tianjin express isn't too bad....

As for this all it got was a bit of extra leg room and a bottle of water. Nice but not going to happen here.

Reserved seating carriages at an appropriately charged premium probably wouldn't be such a bad idea, even better would be flexible start and finish times for offices in the city allowing for a better spread of people on the trains

 

[midfielder]

Dru has nothing on

 

[dru]

I think you might be onto something there midfielder, would strengthen up the mining sector in NSW and Qld at the same time as creating jobs as shovellers.

Really living near the train lines for so long nothing beats Steam Engines for the buzz they create, nobody would be complaining if they got the 9801 to work each moring, they would be complaining about not being able to get on their favorite train

 

[David Votoupal]

And now CityRail failures are blamed on... "acts of God"

 

[clarence]

If we are talking about totally impractical trains for our population spread how about maglev 

OK, I am an idiot. Why would a train that's capable of some 300k/hr be impractical for Coasties and Scum dwellers looking to travel Sydney - Newcastle?