Train talk

[marinermick]

reported for personal attack.

Will you two get a room? - or take it to PM

or even take it to person

david obviously knows who craig is and what he looks like

 

[Part_Timer]

*chin* wouldnt want to upset those who actually contribute to this forum now

 

[dibo]

I'll stick to the train talk - the other talk is fairly well covered, and it might be an idea to draw a line under it. In any case, the 'foreign coaches' joke has a more subtle double meaning that made me chuckle.

Anyhoo, having spent two months hopping on and off the best of European inter-city and inner-urban trains (that is - trains and metros) I think I can offer a view here.

What is great in European cities is that the metro systems have pretty good coverage, are regular and frequent. More importantly, they're really easy to use. In a Lonely Planet guide for any biggish city for an attraction they'll simply give you the street address and tell you what the nearest metro station is. The ticketing systems are simple (one trip, five trips, ten trips, day passes, four-day tourist passes...). What they *aren't* is cheap.

Taking Munich for an example, it's EUR2.30 for a single ticket (EUR1.60 for a short trip), EUR5.00 for an inner-city day pass or EUR10.00 for the full network. Bearing in mind that it's EUR:AUD 1:2, you can see that that's not terribly cheap. And this is for a city that would pretty much fit between about Ashfield, Rockdale, Bondi Junction and Chatswood.

The NSW train system is good for what it costs. It's solving a very different problem to what metros overseas do. It carries large numbers of people over long distances. Compared to metros they are relatively infrequent, but taking the Central Coast line as an example, a train every half an hour essentially all day, every day over a distance of 65km through difficult terrain isn't a bad effort, especially considering the cost to the passenger. I'm not convinced there's some objective measure of how 'bad' the system is, considering the fact it solves a problem that's not terribly comparable to most overseas examples.

What could do with tweaking is timetabling and ticketing. Tickets should be an integrated system with buses, ferries etc. no matter whether public or private, and it shouldn't be done on the simplistic 'by the km' model. It should be by the trip and realistically, if we want a lot more/better services it should be more expensive (unless you like really big state government deficits or higher state taxes).

The State Government's right, the lines need to be untangled and there needs to be by-passes built in so that slow trains don't hold up fast trains.

There should certainly be more investment in creating transport corridors to areas presently poorly serviced - the 'ANZAC Parade' area, the Northern Beaches and especially the outer North West and South West.

At the same time, the system needs to create more nodes than simply having every train run through Central and most through Town Hall. Decentralising and removing pinch points boosts reliability. It's also why systems like London's tube work well - there are several ways to get to most places.

Developing Parramatta as a hub, and beyond that perhaps Hurstville, Liverpool and Blacktown as well could re-shape the entire city of Sydney and with it its economy. It's already happened with North Sydney and Chatswood - the other centres should be pushed to develop along the same lines. But these are long term aims.

As for driving, well... I drive more than I should too, but living in Stanmore and now working in Botany, it's by far the easiest way of doing that trip. Cars are more attractive here because of our less dense population. There's less traffic and transport is harder to organise. Fuel's also a helluva lot cheaper over here.

What I find baffling is the relative lack of complaints about buses. Buses are *terrible* - far worse than trains. They're relatively far less safe, unreliable, either crowded or dead empty and they are both susceptible to and a major cause of traffic problems. Replacing major bus corridors with some form of rail makes loads of sense - north west, Parramatta Rd, ANZAC Pde, Military Rd... All horrible places for buses.

 

[David Votoupal]

The fundamental differences between the subway systems of New York, London, Tokyo, Paris, Moscow, etc is that they don't cover the same geographical footprint as our suburban rail services, and the railcars are designed for people to stand in- it's just a fact of life for people in those places, and not something too many people here would be prepared to tolerate for anything but the shortest of journeys (unless of course you've got no choice).

Putting thought into infrastructure isn't something we've been particularly known for, and not just transport mind you.

 

[Arabmariner]

See you Jimmy........

Seriously though DV you're taking things a bit to much to heart.To me it's just a bit of Pub type banter.If it bothers you ignore it.

I prefer the other method of being a smart arse back 

And anyone who thinks Sydney trains are bad should try British Rail !

 

[kanewillow]

*chin* wouldnt want to upset those who actually contribute to this forum now

craig and DV foxy boxing now my cash is on craig

 

[tuftman]

*chin* wouldnt want to upset those who actually contribute to this forum now

craig and DV foxy boxing now my cash is on craig

I was so waiting for you to get involved in this one


I don't use the cityrail system often enough to make a substantial comment. But would someone give me the basics of wtf is wrong with it, or, if its really really bad..the list of things actually good about it

 

[kanewillow]

y were u waiting for me

 

[dibo]

And anyone who thinks Sydney trains are bad should try British Rail !

That's something that baffles me. Brits bag the trains, when really the only issue is that they're too expensive. They did the job when I was there, getting me from London to the south-west, up through the midlands to the north-west and then across the Pennines and back to the north-west with no issues other than costing more than I'd really like to pay (certainly more than we pay for similar distances).

But the trains *work* just fine.

Londoners bag the tube! Crazy! It's the single most amazing transit system I've seen (bearing in mind I haven't been to Tokyo or New York). It's quick, reliable, not that expensive (but hardly cheap either).

Anyhoo... just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Arabmariner]

And anyone who thinks Sydney trains are bad should try British Rail !

That's something that baffles me. Brits bag the trains, when really the only issue is that they're too expensive. They did the job when I was there, getting me from London to the south-west, up through the midlands to the north-west and then across the Pennines and back to the north-west with no issues other than costing more than I'd really like to pay (certainly more than we pay for similar distances).

But the trains *work* just fine.

Londoners bag the tube! Crazy! It's the single most amazing transit system I've seen (bearing in mind I haven't been to Tokyo or New York). It's quick, reliable, not that expensive (but hardly cheap either).

Anyhoo... just my thoughts on the matter.

I'd never bag the London tube Dibo........brilliant system....goes almost everywhere.

Maybe I'm a bit harsh saying British Rail.....should've said Scot Rail 

 

[dibo]

for an idea of what might be done with sydney, check this out:

According to Wikipedia:

In 2002, the Co-ordinator General of Rail, Ron Christie, released a report, the Long-Term Strategic Plan for Rail for Sydney, the Central Coast, Newcastle, the Illawarra, the South Coast and the Blue Mountains, which outlined the critical infrastructure that would need to be built between then and 2050 to ensure the long-term survival and operation of the CityRail network.  Christie's report suggested that several "metro" lines should be built to service new areas and to relieve capacity on existing lines. In particular, Christie suggested lines:

    * between Cronulla and Miranda in Sydney's south to Dee Why on the northern beaches, via the airport, the CBD and north Sydney,
    * from Parramatta via Top Ryde or Olympic Park to the CBD via Drummoyne, with potential extension to the University of NSW and Sydenham,
    * from Hoxton Park to Parramatta and Castle Hill.

 

[kevrenor]

I've been catching the Newcastle - Central trains for the last 20 years every working day, and many weekend and actually can't find too much wrong, except overcrowding. When people complain of all the problems I wonder what line they are on! 

I'm old enough to remember soot in the eyes from steam trains, and freezing cold trips to Dubbo sleeping on the floors with all the other school kids going home to the country on hols.

I'll let you know comparisons once I've tried ViaRail Canada, and the TGV in France.

 

[dibo]

TGV is awesome. Expensive (if you don't have a Eurail pass ), but awesome.

 

[Arabmariner]

I'm old enough to remember soot in the eyes from steam trains

But isn't there a sense of nostalgia with steam 

 

[dibo]

I'm old enough to remember soot in the eyes from steam trains

But isn't there a sense of nostalgia with steam 

...and frozen pitches, hobnailed boots, children down pit, six o'clock swill... ;D

 

[serious14]

My personal Top 5 Train Systems in the world:

5). Bangkok
4). Paris
3). Shanghai
2). Hong Kong
1). Tokyo

To even begin to compare any system in Australia to these (price, reliability, efficiency, whatever really) is to engage in the time honored act of "you're 'avin a larf".

Personally, I find Brisbane to be Australia's best.

 

[Arabmariner]

Don't go on the Metro in Paris "beered up".

You will get lost and take hours to find your way back to the hotel.

Still gives me nightmares 28 years later!!

 

[David Votoupal]

VIA Rail Canada is much like GSR (Indian Pacific/Ghan) in Australia- aimed at the tourist market with long-distance services, including trans-continental and services to remote areas.

Basically, our long-distance services can hold their own against any on the world. Our regional (NSW and Vic) services are ok but not a patch on Europe and Japan. It's mostly our suburban networks that are the sore point.

I took the airtrain in Brisbane, btw, and found it an excellent service.

 

[dibo]

VIA Rail Canada is much like GSR (Indian Pacific/Ghan) in Australia- aimed at the tourist market with long-distance services, including trans-continental and services to remote areas.

Basically, our long-distance services can hold their own against any on the world. Our regional (NSW and Vic) services are ok but not a patch on Europe and Japan. It's mostly our suburban networks that are the sore point.

I took the airtrain in Brisbane, btw, and found it an excellent service.

Our suburban network practically is a regional system, simply because of the distances covered. Compare apples with apples.

 

[David Votoupal]

Our suburban network practically is a regional system, simply because of the distances covered. Compare apples with apples.

Yes and even by those standards, it still fails miserably.

Not only are Japan's trains punctual, the comfort the ordinary regional trains can provide is even better- then again if it's "Limited Express" service with First Class available it's another level.