R15 - AU v CCM

[Wombat]

Sadly no.
Not having players on the post is a deliberate tactic with a view to catching the opposition on the break with a fast counter attack by having 3 advanced players.
This approach led to our goal by creating a 3 on 2 situation.
We play very directly and lack a midfield that can hold possession, in our last 3 games we have averaged 32% possession, hence the counter is very important in our attacking opportunities.
I share the view that we should have players on the post but it is clearly a compromise for the team we have at the moment.
That said we had 9 players in the box defending when we conceded from the corner, agree we need to be more adaptable in our defensive tactics depending upon the state of the match.
The goal by Sanchez was exceptional however, the direction he was running and the power he managed to get with the glance from where he was.

Then its a moronic tactic. We are willing to ganble a 10% chance to break away against a 90% change that then can score, unincumbered in our 6 yard box.

Someone needs to read " defending for dummies".

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Putting a player on the post doesn't compromise your capacity to run a quick counter in the slightest.
But we've always been oblivious to this. We've lost Grand Finals because of this.
Which I find remarkable. After all, surely CCM heavily gather and utilise statistics, right? I would think the club would know exactly how many goals are scored against us immediately after a corner and what part of the goal they're going in to.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Not a new debate in the football world. I'm in the man on the post camp because you see that player clear too many balls not to for mine - and lofted headers or what have you aside, facing away from goal, they're also positioned to see what's happening and scramble better and clear the ball when it drops awkwardly as we've struggled to deal with several times and gotten very lucky with.

But there are great coaches and teams who don't believe in it.

FWIW, was personally very impressed by Bray's command of his box and think it should go a decent way to improving our defence of set pieces - Uskok too was useful. Interested to hear what Pat thought.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Hutch was asked this directly and said if you win the header having someone on the post doesn't matter.

Get him a copy of coaching for dummies someone

 

[dibo]

I agree with him, for what it's worth.

 

[Wombat]

Hutcho never won a defensive header in his whole career!!!

We are a train wreck at defending set pieces.

This is why we need a defensive coach because ex strikers or middies dont have a clue.

 

[Wombat]

I agree with him, for what it's worth.

Then I would suggest you have never been a keeper or played in the back 4.

Its the equal to letting school kids discipline themselves.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Hutch was asked this directly and said if you win the header having someone on the post doesn't matter.

That's just stating the obvious, not really anything insightful. Of course if you win the ball then they're not taking a shot. But if you don't win the ball then the man can matter. He either won't be seen, or he'll save the game. And given players should be defending zonally there, moving one player off his man onto the post shouldn't cause any problems if the rest are doing their job (and given we're not marking worth a damn even with that player off the post, I can't imagine it could get any worse by putting him on the post. At least that means we have somebody, other than an inexperienced goalkeeper, helping to cover our multitude of defensive errors. I'm sure there's somebody on the squad who's never won a header in training, put him on there!
And when these balls are just a 50-50 into the box, then that sort of thinking becomes downright dangerous. I seriously hope Hutcho doesn't ever go to Star City

NJ Grand final, they scored from a corner this way. We've lost....I think 1, maybe 2 games this season from it.
With our consistently poor defensive performance, how could you NOT want somebody in a position to cover the defensive errors that WILL happen?

 

[dibo]

Then I would suggest you have never been a keeper or played in the back 4.

Its the equal to letting school kids discipline themselves.

Try again buck.

There's *nothing* incorrect about Hutch's statement that "if you win the header having someone on the post doesn't matter".

If you're not winning a lot of headers, it's probably a stupid strategy, but fundamentally it's true.

And I've played for 26 years, mostly in the back 4, so take your big hero statements and shove them.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Yep, you can't argue that winning the first header is the most important thing you can do. But no one ever wins all headers, or always clears their lines even if they do.

So the debate is over whether taking a player off the post and increasing the chance of winning the header, stops the likelihood of scoring more than a man on the post does. Opinions always seem divided. Maybe Luca's point about counter attacking tips it.

At least with Ascroft, Uskok and McGing we look like we can win our share of first headers. I know it didn't turn out well but when Bray crunched Ascroft, that is what you really need your keeper to be able to do. Izzo did not command at all like this for mine. I thought it was an impressive debut. Expect his distribution will now improve over next 6 months, need to see more of his shot stopping to try and gauge just how good he might prove to be... which I'm unfortunately sure we will

Anyway, we have looked extremely vulnerable all year at set pieces, but personally I think that has largely been because other teams players are more experienced at making runs than our back line is at tracking/stopping them. Been some clear improvement though from what I can tell. TW's deep end was costly but appears to be starting to pay dividends.

*Also just checked the dates: And it does indeed appear to be time for our quarterly Dibo and Wombat dust up! Carry on guys.

 

[dibo]

I think we're gambling that we're better off having a greater threat to counter than defending against goals.

There are two calculations here - obviously the first is that we're not going to concede as many through not having a man on the post as we're going to score by hitting on the counter.

Secondly there's the calculation that the attacking side won't commit as many bodies forward if they know we've got speedy men ready to act on quick releases and threaten their goal on the counter.

Accordingly, we should have less of a scrum in the area, the keeper is freer to move about and the defenders have clearer space to attack the ball and clear it.

It all goes tits up if someone like Sanchez comes and wins a terrific near post header though...

But much of our play this year has been about a calculation that something or other suits us and gives us a better chance of winning games. Some (lots?) of those calculations haven't come off, but the assumption that the other decision would necessarily have been better is not always a good assumption.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

All very good points.

Secondly there's the calculation that the attacking side won't commit as many bodies forward if they know we've got speedy men ready to act on quick releases and threaten their goal on the counter.

Maybe this wasn't something other teams were as aware of/taking as seriously as they will/should be now and so won't have been impacting.

That or they also weigh the calculations and think their chances of scoring on us at a set piece are greater than that of us successfully hitting them on a counter...

 

[Big Al]

I know it didn't turn out well but when Bray crunched Ascroft, that is what you really need your keeper to be able to do. Izzo did not command at all like this for mine. I thought it was an impressive debut. Expect his distribution will now improve over next 6 months, need to see more of his shot stopping to try and gauge just how good he might prove to be... which I'm unfortunately sure we will

Was delighted to see him take out who ever was necessary to get to the ball.

 

[pjennings]

I was very happy Uskok. I had seen in for a few minutes in our previous home game and he seemed to run out of puff very quickly. A few more weeks training has done him the world of good.

While I was generally very happy with Hewerd-Belle, good sweeping, good hand speed and reasonably good distribution he really did struggle to command his box at set pieces. THB - when he learns to do this will be an excellent keeper. Bray on the other hand seems a more complete package at this stage - to my mind well above Izzo.

As to the defender on the post debate - it is purely that. I always wanted them, probably because command of the box was my weakest link. However, if the boss wants to play a certain way, that's how you play. I think with Bray, Uskok and Ascroft we are at least in a better position to compete better at corners and have scored at a least a couple of goals from opposition corners.

 

[nebakke]

Yeah... I really really wanted to be impressed by Bray but I'm not sure that he had enough to do in that sense, to impress me.
A positive start though is that, without rewatching, I don't think he was to blame for any of our goals.
I did like that he seemed VERY confident. As was mentioned, he went through whoever to ensure the goal was safe and he had a couple of decent comfortable blocks.
He DID come out VERY far for the ball a couple of times... he got to it every time so i won't judge him on that yet, but I also appreciate that he was up for a last ditch low header when that was needed... don't see that from a lot of goalies

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Even if someone was on far post that goal would have gone in. Watch the replays again.

 

[Wombat]

Try again buck.

There's *nothing* incorrect about Hutch's statement that "if you win the header having someone on the post doesn't matter".

If you're not winning a lot of headers, it's probably a stupid strategy, but fundamentally it's true.

And I've played for 26 years, mostly in the back 4, so take your big hero statements and shove them.

Dibo

I know you dont like to be called out. And you are clearly a smart man BUT.......have you ever organised your defence??

I think not. If you ever did i'm tipping you played alot of high scoring games!!!

The header from Pablo was good but a defender on the back post deals with it easily.

What is your next strategy......employ a keeper who is good on the break.

Its such a stupid argument.

 

[Wombat]

I think we're gambling that we're better off having a greater threat to counter than defending against goals.

There are two calculations here - obviously the first is that we're not going to concede as many through not having a man on the post as we're going to score by hitting on the counter. IS THAT LIKELY?

Secondly there's the calculation that the attacking side won't commit as many bodies forward if they know we've got speedy men ready to act on quick releases and threaten their goal on the counter.
IS THAT LIKELY?
Accordingly, we should have less of a scrum in the area, the keeper is freer to move about and the defenders have clearer space to attack the ball and clear it.

THE FULLBACKS SHOULD BE ON THE GOAL LINE.

It all goes tits up if someone like Sanchez comes and wins a terrific near post header though...

THE DEFENDER EASILY CLEARS THE BALL

But much of our play this year has been about a calculation that something or other suits us and gives us a better chance of winning games. Some (lots?) of those calculations haven't come off, but the assumption that the other decision would necessarily have been better is not always a good assumption.

ITS ALL TO DO WITH POOR DEFENDING

 

[dibo]

I have coached and captained and I've certainly spent a fair bit of time organising a defence. I demand players on posts, but in case you needed a newsflash I'm not an A-League player, I don't play for an A-League team and I'm not an A-League coach.

My team last year had a centre-back taking goalkicks. You don't see that in the professional game either, so I'd be wary of trying to draw too many parallels.

The professional game is different.

There are arguments for playing without players on posts. There are arguments for zonal marking. There are arguments for all sorts of tactics depending on your personnel, your opposition and your game situation. That they might not work in All-Age 1 Million doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong at A-League level.

ITS ALL TO DO WITH POOR DEFENDING

Thanks for the insight, Pep.

 

[dibo]

*Also just checked the dates: And it does indeed appear to be time for our quarterly Dibo and Wombat dust up! Carry on guys.

I don't know about Wombles, but I laughed at this!