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More relocation chat/brawling

Phish Phart

Active Member
............

It's a load of horseshit.

For the first time I'm seriously unsure as to whether I renew my membership.

Firstly you need to realise that what you call your membership is just a con perpetrated by the owner(s) to give you that warm fuzzy feeling of belonging and to encourage your continuing loyalty.
You may be an avid supporter of the club from way back but as far as your status within the organisation itself is concerned it is no different to that of a vegetable, say, a mushroom. Hence being kept in the dark and fed horseshit would seem entirely appropriate in the circumstances.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
First up - I'm against any move from BTS. I want 13 games to be played on the Coast. I didn't go to NSO although when it was put down as our community round and not as a precursor to moving more games I was keen to attend.

However, with SBS now involved it seems that we will likely have a couple of Friday night games and with MC in charge the move of 2 games also seems likely. With that said from my point of view if we lose any games the Friday night ones must be the ones to go. This season's Friday night games drew our lowest crowds of 5797 against Melbourne and 6147 against the Nix. This was even lower than the NSO crowd of 6755 against the Nix. Without those 2 games our average attendance at BTS would be 10,253.

If the bottom line was that we will lose 2 games I could live with losing 2 of our allocated Friday night rounds. That is the only timeslot that I would consider. The other caveat is that we must not lose the games against Victory, SFC, Jets, Roar and WSW from BTS. Especially the NSW based teams. That would mean that the opponents in Sydney would be Nix, Heart, Adelaide and Glory. Maybe Victory and Roar games could be added in years to come if we do boost our members and fans south of the Hawkesbury - but never a NSW based team.

I have a $260 Gold membership. TBH, if this is what transpired and they offered an 11 game membership at $220, 12 game at $240 and 13 game season membership at $260 that represented 11 games at BTS, 1 at NSO and 1 at Brookvale I would take a 12 game one and miss the Brookvale one. Working in Sydney I would find dropping in at NSO easier than rushing back on Friday night for 7:30pm.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Firstly you need to realise that what you call your membership is just a con perpetrated by the owner(s) to give you that warm fuzzy feeling of belonging and to encourage your continuing loyalty.
You may be an avid supporter of the club from way back but as far as your status within the organisation itself is concerned it is no different to that of a vegetable, say, a mushroom. Hence being kept in the dark and fed horseshit would seem entirely appropriate in the circumstances.

I never claimed that my membership was anything other than a season ticket by another name. I'm a customer.

In a situation where the ongoing viability of the club relies in large part on the loyalty of an existing customer base, you'd think disrespecting your customer base by giving them the mushroom treatment would be a pretty dumb idea. It's not just me saying it either.

The continual comments about moving games (through the media I might add) just cause so much damage. Every member I know is aware of them, and all are not renewing without knowing a lot more about what is going on.

They need to quit the chat about moving games and commit 100% to the coast. If that's going to cost the club, let the people of the Central Coast know what has to be done and put it on the community to support the club. They shouldn't take it on themselves to look for savings by running down what they offer to the region.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
D

We all understand the issues ... however to me you are coming across as an anti MC zealot ... almost if he is the anti Christ almost everything he has done you have argued against [the unkind would say rant, the kind would say debate] ..

Even to the point of still saying we may be paying only $ 7, 500.00 per game and we need it cleared up ... as you have posted this figure has to be wrong...

Lets look at our position, lets look at his marketing, and lets look at what he trying to achieve...

I am the first to shout lets have more consultation, however my reading of the Tea Leafs ..

The Good Bits

The band, the cannon at the match, the cannon handout on match days ... brilliant ...

Memberships are a reasonable price ...

Open for Discussion

Moving two games away and keeping 11 on the CC.... Provides a high degree of certainty pertaining to most games... the two away games are an attempt to spread the Mariner Gospel and get more folk to travel from NS on match days to the CC ... is this clever is it smart ... time will tell however it is also understandable and out in the open and leaves most games on the Coast..

Unknown

What is unknown is what our financial position is what % of our crowd are Sydney based ... the 20% membership base if that carries tho to the crowd then more engagement with NS regions makes sense...

The stadium rental ... some huge issues as a rate payer I want the council to get the most rent it can for the stadium.. as a Mariner fan I want the cheapest rent ... IMO this is at the core of the argument and the Council want 10 million per game and MC wants the Council to pay the Mariners to play there ... well over the top however it is the driver behind this...

Our Position

As mentioned we don't know our position and I doubt we ever will ... however we have always struggled for money well before MC arrived ... the issue is not new it appears MC wants to get the club on a firm footing [which in and of itself is not a bad idea] ... His methods are open for question ... his debate vis Fairfax HHMMMMmmmm ...

What is known he has poured a lot of money into the club ... and without him at the time we were gone ...

Future

We have 11 out of 13 games on the Coast ... and that is good ... he could do a lot better on the marketing and consultation with fans...

If you feel so upset about the lost of two games and the management process as to withdraw your membership then so be it ... however that reaction reminds me of my mothers old say... Cutting off your nose to spite your face..

Good luck with your decision making and I hope you stay as a member as you post a lot of meaningful and well through out posts... and we all know your heart is in the right place and you bled yellow ... however if MC has you that upset then so be it...
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
D

We all understand the issues ... however to me you are coming across as an anti MC zealot ... almost if he is the anti Christ almost everything he has done you have argued against [the unkind would say rant, the kind would say debate] ..

Even to the point of still saying we may be paying only $ 7, 500.00 per game and we need it cleared up ... as you have posted this figure has to be wrong...

Lets look at our position, lets look at his marketing, and lets look at what he trying to achieve...

I am the first to shout lets have more consultation, however my reading of the Tea Leafs ..

The Good Bits

The band, the cannon at the match, the cannon handout on match days ... brilliant ...

Memberships are a reasonable price ...

Not sure how much credit he can take for the band. Cannon and the Loose Cannon are good, nobody was claiming that they’re not.

Open for Discussion

Moving two games away and keeping 11 on the CC.... Provides a high degree of certainty pertaining to most games... the two away games are an attempt to spread the Mariner Gospel and get more folk to travel from NS on match days to the CC ... is this clever is it smart ... time will tell however it is also understandable and out in the open and leaves most games on the Coast..

There *isn’t* certainty about how many games he plans to take away from the Coast, only that there will be some.

The lack of certainty mixed with talk about spreading the gospel gets people reading between the lines and wondering if he simply means that the Coast isn’t big enough, and whether a permanent relocation is inevitable.

We remember the Bears and the Northern Eagles.

Unknown

What is unknown is what our financial position is what % of our crowd are Sydney based ... the 20% membership base if that carries tho to the crowd then more engagement with NS regions makes sense...

The stadium rental ... some huge issues as a rate payer I want the council to get the most rent it can for the stadium.. as a Mariner fan I want the cheapest rent ... IMO this is at the core of the argument and the Council want 10 million per game and MC wants the Council to pay the Mariners to play there ... well over the top however it is the driver behind this...

We have no idea whether the supposed 20% of Sydney members (and for what it’s worth, I’m probably one of them) *want* games in Sydney rather than Gosford.

There’s an open question – why did they become members in the first place, and what does that tell us about their future behaviour?

For me, it’s because despite where I live *at the moment*, I’m a Coastie. My loyalty is to the Central Coast. My loyalty to our club stems from the club being a Coastie club. f**k with that and you’re f**king with my loyalty to the club over nearly a decade.

On rent, if it’s $75k per game, it amounts to $975k per season. Going on numbers bandied around the place that suggest the average A-League club spends ~$8 million a year, it’s around 12% of total outlays.

For our incomes, we know we get a grant of about $2.5m per annum from the FFA through the TV deal, and if we were running a $1m loss (total guess) that still means we were making some $4.5m from sponsorships, matchday revenue, memberships and merchandise.

Even if we played at another stadium for free, and broke even that way, we’re then f**king around with the $4.5m of our income that is generated from our local market and the attachment we’ve made in the community.

Realistically, even if we got to the best case scenario (Adelaide United’s deal, rumoured to be about half of the $75k figure) we’re still only halving the deficit – saving 6% of outlays, but f**king around with 56% of our revenue.

We’re talking about f**king over 80% of our customers and mucking about with 56% of our revenue for the sake of a 6% saving!

Memo to CCMFC – get a better idea, that one stinks.

Our Position

As mentioned we don't know our position and I doubt we ever will ... however we have always struggled for money well before MC arrived ... the issue is not new it appears MC wants to get the club on a firm footing [which in and of itself is not a bad idea] ... His methods are open for question ... his debate vis Fairfax HHMMMMmmmm ...

What is known he has poured a lot of money into the club ... and without him at the time we were gone ...

Future

We have 11 out of 13 games on the Coast ... and that is good ... he could do a lot better on the marketing and consultation with fans...

If you feel so upset about the lost of two games and the management process as to withdraw your membership then so be it ... however that reaction reminds me of my mothers old say... Cutting off your nose to spite your face..

Good luck with your decision making and I hope you stay as a member as you post a lot of meaningful and well through out posts... and we all know your heart is in the right place and you bled yellow ... however if MC has you that upset then so be it...

I get that we struggled for money before he arrived. I get that he has committed a lot of cash to the club.

But seriously, you’re an accountant, if I'm getting any of this wrong then let me know.

Let’s say he bought the club for $6 million (as in, that’s what left his wallet, combining the cost of taking on the equity *and* the debt) and he’s stumped up another $2 million in operating losses. He only had a licence guaranteed for another year or two.

If he’s a businessman’s little toe, he would only have bought the club if he’d done his due diligence and seen that he’s getting some value there – there’s a sale price he can get down the track.

With a repaired balance sheet, he’s now looking at the profit/loss and trying to repair that. Fine. That means he’s got an ongoing drain.

But we’ve got a cash vs asset issue here.

Future prospects have brightened considerably since he came in. For a start, the TV deal put $600k a year into the bottom line that wasn’t there before. That’s a big structural improvement.

I understand we’ve also made some changes to what we do with the stadium that have cut some costs too – perhaps bringing our break-even crowd under 10k.

Lastly the licences are all extended by 20 years to 2034 (largely in response to his urging!).

We’re now in a situation where very likely the next TV deal will include financing expansion of the league again, and we’re guaranteed a spot for 20 years.

The intrinsic value of the club (and therefore a potential sale price) has just gone up considerably. His asset is appreciating due to basic changes to how we operate and how the league operates.

If he wants to sell, in all likelihood he’ll make back his money and more, but if he wants to stay but needs some help on the cash supply, it’s also far more likely he could find another investor to come in and share the load.

Why would he go screwing with the most fundamental thing about the business – where the club plays – in the context of a rapidly improving business situation?
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
D

Appreciate your post .. and your feelings...

For me the biggest issue is lack of communication and maybe less trust than when PT was in charge...

The communication to me has been appalling and there seems to be a disregard for the past certainly a lack of understanding of the past ... ie Northern Eagles ... different sport was years ago etc... so why worry ..

The differences between the NE and ourselves is huge ... for starters Manly made no secret they wanted to move back and the forced merger of Norths and Manly was doomed to fail if played out of Gosford ... The Mariners have 9 years of history and no ties with a Sydney club... BUT the communication of the difference and seemingly lack of understanding how important on the Coast this is ...... does suggest a management not in touch with the community ....

As to our financial position I have no idea what it is or were our break even numbers are ... but any study of sport would indicate we need to expand our base ... we average 10 K with a population of 300K ... say 8K are local or 2.67 % of the population come to our games ... 15 K for Brisbane with 2 million is .074% and most clubs other than the Jets are around .074% ... meaning we have on a % basic the best crowd in the league ... sports admin folk say you need a large population base .. ours is growing ... HOWEVER that we need to grow our base to me seems the right way to go ...

On the 11 games on the CC and 2 away in Northern Sydney ... I tho the 11 was nominated by the club ...

In closing me thinks the club management need to communicate to the Coastal community in more meaning ways... certainty consulate with fans rather than hand pick a few at random... however that does not mean I think they have got everything wrong or are poorly managed ....

In closing if I am told the spilt will be 11 to 2 ... and the reason is to attempt to grow our base ... and its explained to me I am far more inclined to support it ... but when left in the dark and read things on the Fairfax wires I am not impressed ... fan engagement is the new buzz in sports admin and we fail in this area ... me thinks the stadium deal must be done as well if the stated 11 games is correct .. again no way of knowing ...

Good luck with your membership decision ... don't leave the forum if you don't renew...
 
Just did some figures on average crowds and populations over the life of the A-League (9 seasons, crowd and population figures from wikipedia).

Jets have the best bums on seats ratio (3.42%), followed by us (3.03%). Of the big cities, Adelaide have the best at 0.85%, followed by Melbourne with 0.71% for 2 teams.

Team Average Population
Melbourne Victory 21553.67 4347000 0.50%
Sydney FC 14472.11 4757000 0.30%
Brisbane Roar 13354.56 2238000 0.60%
Wanderers 13735 4757000 0.29%
AdelaideUnited 10994 1291000 0.85%
Newcastle Jets 10524.78 308000 3.42%
C C Mariners 9459.222 312000 3.03%
Melbourne Heart 8952.75 4347000 0.21%
Wellington Phoenix 8560.286 401000 2.13%
Perth Glory 8509.889 1972000 0.43%
North Queensland Fury 5484 189000 2.90%
Gold Coast United 4124 591000 0.70%
New Zealand Knights 3461.5 1418000 0.24%

I'm not sure how much we pay for the stadium, but given the size of the population, you'd think we shouldn't be paying more than Adelaide.

Sponsorship dollars needs to improve. As the most successful club in the league, we need to sell ourselves to the top end of town. We've been to 7 out of 9 finals series, 4 GFs, 4 Asian Champions Leagues (and possibly a 5th).

The biggest companies in Australia need to be hit up for sponsorship dollars! Woolworths is a company with a big warehouse in Wyong, surely they'd like to be seen as giving something back to the community! ANZ is actively seeking to expand their presence in Asia. Telstra wants to slap their name on the whole world, why not our little club? We need to think big, what about going to Unilever (global multinational) in Epping (northern sydney!) and asking for some sponsorship dosh?
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Per-capita figures are a great indicator of depth of support, but a lousy indicator of potential profitability and an even worse indicator of stadium rents.

I'm pretty sure from conversations I've had with people who'd know better than me that our break-even mark at Gosford is below 10k.

Our average for Gosford games this year was 9,601. The average for 'non-derby' games in Gosford (and we'll have three fewer derbies next year) is 8,495 and derbies averaged 10,891. Next year, assume we have 10 of the former and only 3 of the latter, our crowd drops to 9,047.

Given we have one year with 6 derbies followed by another with 3, we can expect our sustainable average to be right in the middle - about 9,324.

Turns out that our long-term average is right near there - 9,339.

So the task, instead of chasing wild geese on the north shore, is to structure the club finances in a way that regularly achieving 9-10k crowds is sustainable.

TV revenues are helping enormously on this front, and we've got sponsorship deals set in place for coming years (Bartercard are announced only to the end of 2013/14, but we have Masterfoods and Westinghouse Solar to end of 2014/15, Gosford City Council to the end of 2015/16) so we're looking outwardly healthier.

Wouldn't it be nice and refreshing if the club came out and talked about the good things that have happened, and the positive picture for the future?

A club going into its tenth year when many people thought the whole league would fold within five.

A community thought to be a rugby league stronghold with some of the most loyal and dedicated supporters in the country.

A squad and staff that has for ten years refused mediocrity and confounded pundits' expectations.

A long and bright future representing the Central Coast.

Give us comfort and a reason to believe, not uncertainty and reason to doubt.
 

Roy Law

Well-Known Member
Per-capita figures are a great indicator of depth of support, but a lousy indicator of potential profitability and an even worse indicator of stadium rents.

I'm pretty sure from conversations I've had with people who'd know better than me that our break-even mark at Gosford is below 10k.

Our average for Gosford games this year was 9,601. The average for 'non-derby' games in Gosford (and we'll have three fewer derbies next year) is 8,495 and derbies averaged 10,891. Next year, assume we have 10 of the former and only 3 of the latter, our crowd drops to 9,047.

Given we have one year with 6 derbies followed by another with 3, we can expect our sustainable average to be right in the middle - about 9,324.

Turns out that our long-term average is right near there - 9,339.

So the task, instead of chasing wild geese on the north shore, is to structure the club finances in a way that regularly achieving 9-10k crowds is sustainable.

TV revenues are helping enormously on this front, and we've got sponsorship deals set in place for coming years (Bartercard are announced only to the end of 2013/14, but we have Masterfoods and Westinghouse Solar to end of 2014/15, Gosford City Council to the end of 2015/16) so we're looking outwardly healthier.

Wouldn't it be nice and refreshing if the club came out and talked about the good things that have happened, and the positive picture for the future?

A club going into its tenth year when many people thought the whole league would fold within five.

A community thought to be a rugby league stronghold with some of the most loyal and dedicated supporters in the country.

A squad and staff that has for ten years refused mediocrity and confounded pundits' expectations.

A long and bright future representing the Central Coast.

Give us comfort and a reason to believe, not uncertainty and reason to doubt.
That is the context of the letter you should be sending to the club.
Or perhaps we all chip in and take out a full page in the Advocate?
 
So the task, instead of chasing wild geese on the north shore, is to structure the club finances in a way that regularly achieving 9-10k crowds is sustainable.

TV revenues are helping enormously on this front, and we've got sponsorship deals set in place for coming years (Bartercard are announced only to the end of 2013/14, but we have Masterfoods and Westinghouse Solar to end of 2014/15, Gosford City Council to the end of 2015/16) so we're looking outwardly healthier.

Wouldn't it be nice and refreshing if the club came out and talked about the good things that have happened, and the positive picture for the future?

A club going into its tenth year when many people thought the whole league would fold within five.

A community thought to be a rugby league stronghold with some of the most loyal and dedicated supporters in the country.

A squad and staff that has for ten years refused mediocrity and confounded pundits' expectations.

A long and bright future representing the Central Coast.

Give us comfort and a reason to believe, not uncertainty and reason to doubt.

Well put, dibo!

This is a club that has outperformed all the other clubs except for Brisbane on almost all statistics you'd care to mention. Number of wins, goals scored (Victory also ahead of us here), matches lost, goals conceded, points, trips to finals and GFs. A truly CHAMPION club!

This is the message that we need to sell to the sponsors.
 

Big Al

Well-Known Member
Well for a start the community round seems to have spread it's disease to two away games.

The gradual push. Whats the bet both are against NZ. Would any body on the coast care about missing the NZ games? Would they get a better turnout at those games in Brookie & NSO?

The key is which games get moved.

If Charles wanted to inflate the crowd at one of these games he would just put it on against WSW or SFC at NSO. There away support would justify a good crowd & lack of Mariners there would be missed. However you'd get a shit fight when you come back to the coast & find every has left with the shits.

It is purely poor PR. Instead of trying to control us they try & hide it from us & let the anger grow. Even selecting a so called random group to an event that they didn't know involved such serious matters.
With Fan representation it needs to be all in or none. We have had the McBreen decision & now a so called meeting go to a select few.

To me honesty is the best policy & if you are honest you don't need to lie when giving bad news.

How it could have gone. FFA has given us strict permission to move a maximum of 3 games a year to attract bigger support. We will target areas of sydney against the opposition no one wants to see at BT. We loose $1 when the Nix play at BT but will make $2 if we play them at NSO allowing us to afford a marquee player such as Berni Ibini or Flores etc.

There has been a lot of success this year with the sauce bottles, the cannon, the band but that has all been trodden on by us arguing over potential moves of the club games or club. Everything they build they knock over when they get up.

The introduction of WSW has certainly helped put the A League on a bigger stage in Sydney as has Del Piero. Making the game more attractive to the masses is going to help when people say well I could sponsor the WSW for $2 or the Mariners for $.50 - I get the same Asian exposure but less print media or I get the same fox sports viewers but limited write ups in the daily telegraph etc.

Interesting discussion on 442 Re: Which club is most important to the league - Everyone thought it to be a pissing contest until they took it seriously & the consensus was they are all important & bring different things. This includes us. People are saying our success could lead to other regionals being involved as we have showed it can happen & how.
 

BrisRecky

I'm an idiot savant without the pesky savant bit
Bottom line is MC has kept us in the dark and that shits me...don't treat the members like were f**kin idjits and there wouldnt be so much discord
 

bilo

Well-Known Member
D



What is known he has poured a lot of money into the club ... and without him at the time we were gone ...

He hasn't poured lots of money into the club. Nothing like the numbers talked about on here. He put some money in prior to Turnball leaving and has then taken on the clubs operating costs. He has put money into the Centre of Excellence (a separate business that is currently the main drain on the Football Club)

Also as I have written before without him we were not gone and without him in the future we will not be gone. I am aware of a number of investors that are just waiting for him to stop screwing around with the club and will take over the running (and costs) of the Football Club (NOT the Development masqueraded as a COE).

The sooner he packs up a leaves the better and then the Football Club can prosper on the CENTRAL COAST not North Sydney or Manly
 

Roy Law

Well-Known Member
Also as I have written before without him we were not gone and without him in the future we will not be gone. I am aware of a number of investors that are just waiting for him to stop screwing around with the club and will take over the running (and costs) of the Football Club (NOT the Development masqueraded as a COE).
:thumbup:
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
He hasn't poured lots of money into the club. Nothing like the numbers talked about on here. He put some money in prior to Turnball leaving and has then taken on the clubs operating costs. He has put money into the Centre of Excellence (a separate business that is currently the main drain on the Football Club)

Also as I have written before without him we were not gone and without him in the future we will not be gone. I am aware of a number of investors that are just waiting for him to stop screwing around with the club and will take over the running (and costs) of the Football Club (NOT the Development masqueraded as a COE).

The sooner he packs up a leaves the better and then the Football Club can prosper on the CENTRAL COAST not North Sydney or Manly

I am the first to say if we had a new owner that could be hugely beneficial ... the investors HHHMMMMM hand on heart not the other thing ... you can say for certain and for sure they are there and have the ability to fund the club....

As for the COE ... tis a huge part of our club ... so what happens to it...
 

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