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Mariners Squad - 2019-2020

Forum Phoenix

Well-Known Member
It comes down to the fact that Muzz is a cheap squaddie. There is a club captain paid more than him as a central striker and a visa striker as well. If there is a problem it is that those two players are not performing well enough for him not to be the current starting striker. We have Jair, Simon, Murray Majok and Roberts as central strikers at the moment. The older ones aren't keeping him out and no one is advocating for the younger ones so he is the starting striker by default.

He is not a big money player like Fornaroli, Berisha, Le Fondre, Barbarouses, Maclaren or even Roy. If there is a comparison to be made it is to Adam Kwasnik who had at the same stage had a very similar record and at a very similar age. Kwas bled for the club (literally at times) and I see that sort of commitment from Murray. We also had stronger squads and gave better service to our strikers when Kwas played. It should be noted that Kwas also doubled his conversion rate after this and is our second highest goal scorer.

I don’t think Kwassie is similar in ability at all personally. He had an X factor and instinct few striker possess. But it’s really not my point PJ as to whether he should be compared to bigger or better players. Or any of our dismal striking roster either. I’m not comparing him to anyone at all really. My concerns are with his performance and his potential. And my point is I simply don’t think he’s ever going to be the level we or any HAL side need. I think that’s unfortunate, and I hope I’m proven wrong, but I think it’s true.

There’s been enormous support and patience for Muzz on here where virtually any other player who had missed the chances he’s had would be absolutely slammed. I don’t mind because he’s clearly a great guy and I’m not one for slamming players in general, but I see players like DWH and they look twice as promising as Muzz to me. And I think we pretty obviously need to do much better than all our current striking roster if we’re ever going to challenge again and get off the foot of the table. And I’m not exempting Muzz from that because he’s had ample game time and service to do far better than he has imo.

So I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, with a caveat that I’d much prefer you’re proven right and not me.
 
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Ozhammer

Well-Known Member
Sorry if this is a bit late on in the discussion regarding Silvera’s visit to LAFC but I just thought it worth pointing out that in relation his possible sale, there is no real likelihood that money would be reinvested into the squad in any meaningful sense.

Rather, it would more likely be used to offset the loss the club makes this season, thus reducing the size of the cheque MC would have to write at the end of yet another underwhelming campaign.

Just sayin’ :popcorn:
 
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Holy

Well-Known Member
Great post.

I’d love to hear someone experienced speak to the 4222 as I’ve never personally played in one or coached that system.

To me there seems to be issues around width in attack sporadically. In defence it’s clearly not as fast to slide when the opposition switches play and I noticed sometime the front or back two compress. So you see a 442 and 424 that at first I thought was a 433 when players were shifting in and out and confusing me,

My biggest concern is that too often for my liking the opponents can easily progress up field and deep into our final third. But with this formation I’m struggling to tell who is failing in their duty in these instances - which is not helped by the amount of cheap ball we still give away.

Appreciate any and all thoughts. (I can use google but prefer to hear from those with personal. Experience)
I haven’t seen the 4-2-2-2 used before but as a LFC supporter I remember reading about Jürgen Klopp using it last season. It’s hard to see it on the TV but I have attached a link to the article which gives a pretty good overview of how it works for Klopp and a good insight into how it should work.

https://theredmentv.com/tactical-explanation-of-klopps-new-4-4-2-4-2-2-2-system/

What is noticeable is that Klopp has them going back to a 4-4-2 or more correctly a 4-4-1-1 in defence.

Here’s my take on it from a textbook perspective and what I think Staj is trying to do plus how it looked in Saturday’s game.

So the textbook idea is to maintain a balance between defence & attack with 6 players at any play.

You achieve this by utilising 2 DM to protect the back 4, giving your 2 AM & 2 Strikers the freedom to attack with the support of the 2 WB.

This can makes your wings vulnerable but given your 2 DM are there to cover its seen as only doing limited damage as the opposition needs to move central to score.

Due to how fluid the system is, the strikers don’t need to be specialists, but they need to be able to pass well and be capable of playing in the midfield.

The 2 AM’s need to have good all round good skills, and be super fit as they can run out to wings or cut inside to help the strikers as well as getting back in defence.

The 2 DM’s main go to provide cover for defence.

The 2 WB’s have to run forward, overlapping with the AM’s but also get back to provide wide cover for the 2 CB’s. This needs players with big motors and a real ability to cross.

So, I can see why Staj uses this. He has no specialist strikers. He strengthens the defence by having 6 players at most phases. We have some good DM’s and good AM’s and by using this system he can easily go to a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, thus Plan A, B and C.
 

Holy

Well-Known Member
On Saturday, I thought it was the best we have looked in this system thus far (but far from perfect), especially when GG came on for Stens. I have thought for the last few weeks Stens looks lost, so maybe he is still coming to terms with the system. 3 of the first 4 passes he made the other night all went to Roar. Nizzy however seemed to understand his role in this system and has a good football brain. He was calling to where he wanted players and where he wanted the ball. He was definitely my MOM. Clisby and Miller did get forward but were back a lot to have a balanced back 4 quite often too. Yes there were times they got in behind when these 2 got forward, but that one of the deficiencies. DDS and Milan were exceptional getting wide, cutting in, swapping sides and getting back in defence. It’s why DDS gets gassed, he works his butt off. Oar is more suited in this as he has the freedom to roam across the park looking for gaps. Muzz is doing his job darting wide and dropping back and generally being about.

Looking at the official stats, with 18 shots to 11, there is reason to think this system is ok and is working. BUT

But the one word with it is quality. We don’t have it.

DDS inability to have any power in his shots, Oar with no assists and no goals, Miller in his first senior season in not his preferred position, and Clisby, well, enough said. Muzz doesn’t make runs through the 2 CB or at the near post, as well as many other of the other issues others have posted like too many cheap turnovers, defence stretched and insufficient skills like passing.

I am, by no means any expert, and AM suggestion of Staj doing a talk about it at a fan forum would be great. I would really love to hear his insight.

I wouldn’t mind hearing from @Ozhammer or @marinermick given they are more technically astute than me.
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
On Saturday, I thought it was the best we have looked in this system thus far (but far from perfect), especially when GG came on for Stens. I have thought for the last few weeks Stens looks lost, so maybe he is still coming to terms with the system. 3 of the first 4 passes he made the other night all went to Roar. Nizzy however seemed to understand his role in this system and has a good football brain. He was calling to where he wanted players and where he wanted the ball. He was definitely my MOM. Clisby and Miller did get forward but were back a lot to have a balanced back 4 quite often too. Yes there were times they got in behind when these 2 got forward, but that one of the deficiencies. DDS and Milan were exceptional getting wide, cutting in, swapping sides and getting back in defence. It’s why DDS gets gassed, he works his butt off. Oar is more suited in this as he has the freedom to roam across the park looking for gaps. Muzz is doing his job darting wide and dropping back and generally being about.

Looking at the official stats, with 18 shots to 11, there is reason to think this system is ok and is working. BUT

But the one word with it is quality. We don’t have it.

DDS inability to have any power in his shots, Oar with no assists and no goals, Miller in his first senior season in not his preferred position, and Clisby, well, enough said. Muzz doesn’t make runs through the 2 CB or at the near post, as well as many other of the other issues others have posted like too many cheap turnovers, defence stretched and insufficient skills like passing.

I am, by no means any expert, and AM suggestion of Staj doing a talk about it at a fan forum would be great. I would really love to hear his insight.

I wouldn’t mind hearing from @Ozhammer or @marinermick given they are more technically astute than me.

I can’t add much more to this except for a couple of things:

- The speed of the passing game from both team last week was atrocious. This has been a bugbear of mine all season. We move the ball way too slow.
- Tactics and structure look excellent compared to past seasons except for the final third. It is almost as if Staj just wants the players to improvise in that area and be unpredictable and therefore given them less restraints up there. Plays look chunky and incohesive. We can all see on this forum that players don’t know what other players are doing in this area. I understand the need to build structure from the back but some guidance up front would be handy. In saying this the many years I have coached I have always foundr it harder coaching the attacking side of the game rather than the defensive. Maybe Staj needs more help in this area.

Ultimately though, it is as you posted, we don’t have the quality. This was obvious (by some) in preseason and obvious now.
 
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FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
We simply lack quality - we have 3 quality AL players worth of wages either on the bench never getting a game or not in the squad - until they can be moved on, he will struggle (I'd also add DDS and SS to that list)
 

style_cafe

Well-Known Member
I like Staj as a coach and Arrate is a good assistant.
I`d like to see more time spent working on the front 1/3 though.
Whether this is with a specialist attcking type coach or with Staj/Arrate.
We need more work on crosses increasing the accuracy and the variation.
We also need to be able to make penetrating passes from the midfield,that attacks the space behind defenders.
We`ve had these problems for 3-4 seasons now and all of the coaches we`ve had have concentrated solely of stopping the leakage of goals.
Maybe it`s time to spend a few hours a week focusing on attack...:popcorn:
 

Capn Gus Bloodbeard

Well-Known Member
i hate to be pessimistic, but for all the 'man, imagine how good it will be when Staj gets to sign his own squad!' talk, let's not forget that Jair was his doing.
We all knew he'd be a terrible signing and he's worse than imagined - not signing anybody would have been better.
So I really, really hope he was a one-off and that Staj does much better with his recruiting.

It's hard knowing that we've achieved nothing this transfer window. It just kind of looks like we know that we don't have a squad that can win games, on paper we're wooden spoon contenders and we're not doing anything about it. I think I remember there were a few possibilities, and no visa spots available makes it difficult - though on the other hand, there hasn't really been a lot of signings at all this January, seems to be a lot quieter than usual.

I know we talk about our attack a lot on here....but with our entire attack as a whole, it's not even 'can't finish', and saying 'oh, there's no service' is just an over simplification.
Yes, our service sucks. Our crosses are mostly terrible.
And on the rare occasion somebody is actually making some movement off-the-ball, we're usually so slow to release the ball that they're being marked again - or we don't even look and send it to nobody (or send it to where somebody should be).
So, yeah, service - but how many chances have we had with decent service ad nothing. Muzz probably manages to receive the best chances, but he's not the only one.
Also, the players without the ball need to generate the option for service. How often do you see our attackers all just standing there scratching their balls? Any other team, the attackers are doing one of 2 things, if not both at once: trying to lose their players, and/or trying to draw their player away from space/other players. It's not just about moving off the player - there's a lot of subtlety and mind games in avoiding your opponents. Keep moving to the left, and you've set them up for the one time you move to the right. Keep backing off to run forwards, and the one time you don't, they're waiting 10 yards upfield for you and now you're 20 yards away from goal, unmarked, with the ball. That sort of thing.
Every other team can do this - just watch how often their attackers lose our defenders. Now, I know that doesn't take much because our back line is just horrendous and there is so much ball watching and laziness, but it always still requires some effort from the attackers to lose the player marking them/covering space.
But our attackers don't. Somebody has the ball in the top 3rd, and we have 2 or 3 players standing still and wondering why they haven't scored yet. So, our attackers don't know how to move off the ball, they can't finish - and as for service; strikers themselves need to know how to deliver service to each other and ours aren't much chop at that either.
So, there simply isn't anything positive about our front line.
Literally, the most positive thing anybody has said about our front line in months is that 'with development, Muzz could become a squaddie'
Of course, one wonders what on earth is happening with players like Fox and Kim (Fox in particular - we desperately need to keep playing competent defenders - and he was somebody improving every match).
We should, at least, have one of the best midfields in the league (except for the specific point of setting up goals - and really, every mid should be scoring at least a few a season. Why aren't ours?), but our midfield structure has been tinkered with a lot, not to mention key players playing out of position (which seems to cause some confusion and disruption).
And then it's a cycle - the more time we spend being rubbish, the harder it is to attract decent players with a limited budget. If we get the spoon again that's going to really hurt our recruitment and retention chances - after all, nobody likes losing every week.
Though by that point, I'm not sure that our seven remaining fans will care.
 

Tim

Well-Known Member
To be fair, Staj’s recruiting includes Milan, Kim, Ziggy and Birra. I know some don’t rate Ziggy (I do) but to say Staj’s recruitment is potentially poor is way off target. Jair was available and probably inexpensive and worth a gamble.
Another point re MC’s perceived lack of investment in a quality striker/attacker is perhaps a bit unfair. He brought R McCormack to the club last season which proved to be a failure but to to be fair, many were pretty excited at his arrival after his performance for Melb City the previous season and reputation/performance in the UK. He’s probably a bit gun-shy re expensive recruits after that disappointment...

I am not defending MC, far from it, but understand a reluctance to invest again after last season. As for Staj, he’s done ok with an average squad and i imagine next season with one or more free visa spots to fill and some more coin, I am confident we will improve again. It’s his first year in the A-League and I think we need to temper our expectations to reflect that...
 

FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
I wonder if the need to be at 90% of the cap was a factor? Was Jair a cynical move to get us above it (just) no one who has any football brain whatsoever would have wanted him as a player because he has proven to be shit in the AL. Or is our recruiting team so bad as to sign him? (Rhetorical question, Judas, Cernak etc)

We have 3 young strikers (Majok, Roberts and Kuol) why arent we seeing if they can do something? I'm not a Majok fan but as a focal point for Muzz to run off, he cant be worse than what we've tried. Roberts is another big target man and Kuol will be a very good player for someone

Ive left Smylie out as we have all seen what he brings - he isnt called the butcher for nothing
 

Capn Gus Bloodbeard

Well-Known Member
It could well be time to give Majok another shot - although I'd rather see some cycling of newbies. Though we have a big wall with bringing through new/young players - they don't anybody to teach them. There's no established, good striker who can teach them how to transition to the HAL - so we're bringing young players up to the top level with nobody they can learn off or be mentored by, so of course we're not going to see much from them.
 

Capn Gus Bloodbeard

Well-Known Member
To be fair, Staj’s recruiting includes Milan, Kim, Ziggy and Birra. I know some don’t rate Ziggy (I do)
but to say Staj’s recruitment is potentially poor is way off target. Jair was available and probably inexpensive and worth a gamble.
Another point re MC’s perceived lack of investment in a quality striker/attacker is perhaps a bit unfair. He brought R McCormack to the club last season which proved to be a failure but to to be fair, many were pretty excited at his arrival after his performance for Melb City the previous season and reputation/performance in the UK. He’s probably a bit gun-shy re expensive recruits after that disappointment...

I am not defending MC, far from it, but understand a reluctance to invest again after last season. As for Staj, he’s done ok with an average squad and i imagine next season with one or more free visa spots to fill and some more coin, I am confident we will improve again. It’s his first year in the A-League and I think we need to temper our expectations to reflect that...

Ah yep, thanks for reminding be about Staj's other signings. I do feel like Ziggy has been a big disappointment - but he did actually seem good; an underperforming signing doesn't necessarily mean that signing them was the wrong decision. It can be a decision that was good at the time but didn't pay off.
I know McCormack was expensive - and that was hugely disappointing. Unfortunately our team's reputation is mud, and we're going to need at least one player in their prime - not somebody past their prime.
Being understanding of concern from our primary investor doesn't change that.
Don't get me wrong, I do think Staj can get us off the bottom to the middle of the table at least, and it will be interesting to see what happens next year when we ditch some of our overpaid underperformers.
It's a catch-22 in trying to decide whether to change the squad/formation or not too. We've seen what happens when we win and he doesn't change it up - and also, when the team/formation doesn't deliver the desired outcome, that suggest a change is warranted - but how to balance that versus disruption and confusion by changing things.
Who'd be a coach?
 

Big Al

Well-Known Member
I can’t add much more to this except for a couple of things:

- The speed of the passing game from both team last week was atrocious. This has been a bugbear of mine all season. We move the ball way too slow.
- Tactics and structure look excellent compared to past seasons except for the final third. It is almost as if Staj just wants the players to improvise in that area and be unpredictable and therefore given them less restraints up there. Plays look chunky and incohesive. We can all see on this forum that players don’t know what other players are doing in this area. I understand the need to build structure from the back but some guidance up front would be handy. In saying this the many years I have coached I have always foundr it harder coaching the attacking side of the game rather than the defensive. Maybe Staj needs more help in this area.

Ultimately though, it is as you posted, we don’t have the quality. This was obvious (by some) in preseason and obvious now.
The front needs quite a few components.

Speed - we don’t have any. Taking away penetrating balls to be run onto. Appiah was used very well but just had no quality at the end of it.

A creative unpredictable player who can play what the defense gives and can work around that. The problem here is if you have that person you need that connection with your striker and wingers. You know that ESP some people have on the field. We’ve all experienced it where for no other reason than you just get each other you click with an individual and they get what you are doing and they react as your doing it. It can’t be tought. You either have it with someone or you don’t.

Then if you don’t have the above you need structure. Total structure. Like a basketball play or NFL quarterback. You need yo basically call a play. Take the creativity away from the players. You instruct them when in this position you must to do this at that particular time and the others must react accordingly. It predictable but when there is no connection with the players it’s vital. We need this. Millar last year would look for the cut back quite regularly and our players reacted as they knew where the ball was going in 80% of the time.

Then and this is the Mariners problem the quality of the defense is just better than the attack and no matter what you serve up they have the ability to react and shut it down.

We are lacking quality in all of the above and facing strong defense.

Murray was excellent at Apiah with the asian winger setting him up. They just had that connection. I see know body on our team that works well with another up front
 

Big Al

Well-Known Member
I also believe Staj is looking at different formations and different players to see who gives him what for next year and where he needs to recruit better players.

We have certainly improved and are not
Getting smashed each week but we are definitely in the process of evaluating each player.

I also believe the backs and mids would be performing better if the front third was playing better and scoring goals.
It would take the stress away from the defense and let us control the games better
 

turbo

Well-Known Member
We need this. Millar last year would look for the cut back quite regularly and our players reacted as they knew where the ball was going in 80% of the time.

I think you're on the right track here. It's easy to say Muzz or Jair aren't going near post/running between the CBs/whatever but watching our attack aside from floating in crosses there's no clear plan of I'm looking for Muzz here or DDS/Milan here unless someone has popped up in a great spot unmarked. Even with a top quality striker you need to have an understanding of how to give them the chance to convert. Yeah they'll grab more individual efforts than we have but there still needs to be a plan or understanding. At the moment if they make the run in behind and the pass isn't played and at the right time they're now offside. It all feels very reactive.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
To be fair it is pretty hard for the strikers to know what DDS is planning - I don;t think he knows half the time.
 

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