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Is the Pope a criminal?

curious

Well-Known Member
It appears Dawkins has no intention of doing what's claimed in the original article.

Comment #478580 by Richard Dawkins on April 11, 2010 at 8:48 am
Needless to say, I did NOT say "I will arrest Pope Benedict XVI" or anything so personally grandiloquent. You have to remember that The Sunday Times is a Murdoch newspaper, and that all newspapers follow the odd custom of entrusting headlines to a sub-editor, not the author of the article itself.

What I DID say to Marc Horne when he telephoned me out of the blue, and I repeat it here, is that I am whole-heartedly behind the initiative by Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens to mount a legal challenge to the Pope's proposed visit to Britain. Beyond that, I declined to comment to Marc Horme, other than to refer him to my 'Ratzinger is the Perfect Pope' article here: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5341

Here is what really happened. Christopher Hitchens first proposed the legal challenge idea to me on March 14th. I responded enthusiastically, and suggested the name of a high profile human rights lawyer whom I know. I had lost her address, however, and set about tracking her down. Meanwhile, Christopher made the brilliant suggestion of Geoffrey Robertson. He approached him, and Mr Robertson's subsequent 'Put the Pope in the Dock' article in The Guardian shows him to be ideal:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5366
The case is obviously in good hands, with him and Mark Stephens. I am especially intrigued by the proposed challenge to the legality of the Vatican as a sovereign state whose head can claim diplomatic immunity.

Even if the Pope doesn't end up in the dock, and even if the Vatican doesn't cancel the visit, I am optimistic that we shall raise public consciousness to the point where the British government will find it very awkward indeed to go ahead with the Pope's visit, let alone pay for it.

Geoffrey Robertson's article, referred to by Dawkins.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2010/apr/02/pope-legal-immunity-international-law
Legal immunity cannot hold. The Vatican should feel the full weight of international law

          o Geoffrey Robertson
          o guardian.co.uk, Friday 2 April 2010 20.30 BST
       

Well may the pope defy "the petty gossip of dominant opinion". But the Holy See can no longer ignore international law, which now counts the widespread or systematic sexual abuse of children as a crime against humanity. The anomalous claim of the Vatican to be a state and of the pope to be a head of state and hence immune from legal action cannot stand up to scrutiny.

The truly shocking finding of Judge Murphy's commission in Ireland was not merely that sexual abuse was "endemic" in boys' institutions but that the church hierarchy protected the perpetrators and, despite knowledge of their propensity to reoffend, allowed them to take up new positions teaching other children after their victims had been sworn to secrecy.

This conduct, of course, amounted to the criminal offence of aiding and abetting sex with minors. In legal actions against Catholic archdioceses in the US it has been alleged that the same conduct reflected Vatican policy as approved by Cardinal Ratzinger (as the pope then was) as late as November 2002. Sexual assaults were regarded as sins that were subject to church tribunals, and guilty priests were sent on a "pious pilgrimage" while oaths of confidentiality were extracted from their victims.

In the US, 11,750 allegations of child sex abuse have so far featured in actions settled by archdioceses in Los Angeles for $660m and in Boston for $100m. But some dioceses have gone into bankruptcy and some claimants want higher level accountability two reasons to sue the pope in person. In 2005 a test case in Texas failed because the Vatican sought and obtained the intercession of President Bush, who agreed to claim sovereign (ie head of state) immunity on the pope's behalf. Bush lawyer John B Bellinger III certified that Pope Benedict the XVI was immune from suit "as the head of a foreign state".

Bellinger is now notorious for his defence of Bush administration torture policies. His opinion on papal immunity is even more questionable. It hinges on the assumption that the Vatican, or its metaphysical emanation, the Holy See, is a state. But the papal states were extinguished by invasion in 1870 and the Vatican was created by fascist Italy in 1929 when Mussolini endowed this tiny enclave 0.17 of a square mile containing 900 Catholic bureaucrats with "sovereignty in the international field ... in conformity with its traditions and the exigencies of its mission in the world".

The notion that statehood can be created by another country's unilateral declaration is risible: Iran could make Qom a state overnight, or the UK could launch Canterbury on to the international stage. But it did not take long for Catholic countries to support the pretentions of the Holy See, sending ambassadors and receiving papal nuncios in return. Even the UK maintains an apostolic mission.

The UN at its inception refused membership to the Vatican but has allowed it a unique "observer status", permitting it to become signatory to treaties such as the Law of the Sea and (ironically) the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and to speak and vote at UN conferences where it promotes its controversial dogmas on abortion, contraception and homosexuality. This has involved the UN in blatant discrimination on grounds of religion: other faiths are unofficially represented, if at all, by NGOs. But it has encouraged the Vatican to claim statehood and immunity from liability.

This claim could be challenged successfully in the UK and in the European Court of Human Rights. But in any event, head of state immunity provides no protection for the pope in the international criminal court (see its current indictment of President Bashir). The ICC Statute definition of a crime against humanity includes rape and sexual slavery and other similarly inhumane acts causing harm to mental or physical health, committed against civilians on a widespread or systematic scale, if condoned by a government or a de facto authority. It has been held to cover the recruitment of children as soldiers or sex slaves. If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic, but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto authority then they fall within the temporal jurisdiction of the ICC if that practice continued after July 2002, when the court was established.

Pope Benedict has recently been credited with reforming the system to require the reporting of priests to civil authorities, although initially he blamed the scandal on "gay culture". His admonition last week to the Irish church repeatedly emphasised that heaven still awaits the penitent paedophile priest. The Holy See may deserve respect for offering the prospect of redemption to sinners, but it must be clear that in law the pope does so as a spiritual adviser, and not as an immune sovereign.
 

Jesus

Jesus
serious14 said:
Jesus - the Pope is in fact not immune, as under United Nations law/rules, he is not classified as a head of state.

Jesus and Scottmac - neither Dawkins nor Hitchens have a new book coming out, and Dawkins most recent book was about Evolution (from a perspective which had little to do with any religious body).  Dawkins hardly needs any publicity anyway, he's sold millions of books and is very well known for his stances across many media fronts.

I gotta agree with Curious here.  Your viewpoints are confusing and slightly disturbing.

The vatican has a seat ion the UN no?
Who is head of state of the vatican otherwise?
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
Jesus said:
serious14 said:
Jesus - the Pope is in fact not immune, as under United Nations law/rules, he is not classified as a head of state.

Jesus and Scottmac - neither Dawkins nor Hitchens have a new book coming out, and Dawkins most recent book was about Evolution (from a perspective which had little to do with any religious body).  Dawkins hardly needs any publicity anyway, he's sold millions of books and is very well known for his stances across many media fronts.

I gotta agree with Curious here.  Your viewpoints are confusing and slightly disturbing.

The vatican has a seat ion the UN no?

no, has observer status and cannot vote
 

bjw

bjw
tumblr_l0g24uNxoe1qzul5to1_500.jpg
 

goingtoadisco

Well-Known Member
Touchy subject.

Im not religous but im not an athiest. I just like to live and let live.

If he is guilty he is accountable. Easy concept.

Though he is the pope. Who would have the support of millions worldwide no matter what he did.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
NY is a city with heaps of Italians and Irish as well as a sizeable Hispanic bloc so there's a pretty huge Catholic population. There are also more jews in NY than pretty much anywhere else in the US. I'm not sure the NYT would have a leaning one way or another - it's simply pretty close to the paper of record for the entire country (along with the Washington Post).
 

curious

Well-Known Member
This is not directly related to the pope, existing or past.
I do ask, however, with this knowledge now in the public domain, will action be taken by the church against those involved?

Articles are too long to post in full.

http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/secrets-of-the-bishops-how-hunter-church-leaders-failed-to-report-pedophile-priest/1814285.aspx?page=2
SENIOR Australian Catholic Church figures tried to secretly force a notorious Hunter paedophile priest from the priesthood, in full knowledge of the criminal nature of allegations against him, the "grave problems for the community" his behaviour represented and without reporting him to police.

Documents obtained by The Herald show two bishops, Leo Clarke and Michael Malone, and a future archbishop, Philip Wilson, had roles in an attempted "speedy" laicisation, or defrocking, of Father Denis McAlinden in October 1995, in which he was assured by Bishop Clarke that "your good name will be protected by the confidential nature of the process"

http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/maitland-newcastle-diocese-document-confirmed-churchs-stance/1814255.aspx?storypage=2

Bishop Malone declined to comment last week on his role in the attempted secret defrocking of McAlinden.

"I will not comment on issues pertaining to deceased members of the diocese" who did not have a "right of reply".

"I am on record with your paper and others saying that I could have handled earlier matters of historical sexual assault better," he said.

"Mistakes were made but we have moved forward."

http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/investigator-disappointed-not-surprised-pedophile-allegations-not-reported-to-police/1814257.aspx

"Just imagine if a school principal discovered that a teacher was sexually abusing students and decided to transfer the teacher to another school or ask the teacher to resign, without referring the matter to police, and with the support of senior education officials," Mr Ure said.

"There would be justifiable outrage."
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
Curious

I think another way of asking your question and one I have not heard put to the church is...

Assume Midfielder in the confessional said to the Priest .. Father forgive me for I have ... murdered someone... raped someone.. had sex with a four year old... I mean a very serious offence...would I be sent to say some prays and God forgives me ... nay me thinks the priest would say ... to be forgiven you need to go the authorities and hand yourself in....

If this is so (maybe a huge assumption on my part I accept this) but if this is what a priest would do to someone not a priest ... why or how can you not apply the same punishment ( punishment is the only word I could think of there is probably a better word) to a priest...
 

curious

Well-Known Member
Fear of reprisal might override moral conscience when advising without authority in such a predicament, but I'd like to think most would attempt to at least advise they admit to their parish authority. Even I can admit that many have good intentions, albeit, somewhat misguided at times. It's what hasn't been done by those in authority following an admittance and/or knowledge of a wrong that's allowed it to continue for generations.

It's quite ironic actually. Before I come across the several articles posted above today, I was reading another article on the proposed public school ethics classes . Religious groups up in arms re- the ethics classes, wanting them stopped, major input into the content of trial classes and the state government succumbing to their pressure. But that's for another thread.
 

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