CCM Fans and the club PT 2

[Corsair]

The refereeing we have suffered was beyond a disgrace and really I can't see how it can fail to turn any Mariners supporter off. When you have so much else against you, very hard for stuff like this not to feel like the last straw. I keep going "despite it". But I'm not f**king happy. And I know too many people who it's crushed.

This clip is on point and I identify with the rest of your post too, which was well formulated, thoughtful and well expressed. Grateful for your thoughts and opinion.

 

[Corsair]

One last thing, now I have an understanding of the actions the club has taken, none of my upset is directed at the club. It's league and referee incompetence that has me in a position where I'm totally despondent and do not believe it's a fair playing field. As I've previously stated the referee's and their assistants are the most important people on the field, if they're cheating or incompetent there is no point following the game. Based on publicly available footage, Shaun Evans is either cheating or incompetent and should never referee A-League matches again.

 

[FFC Mariner]

What didnt help was our esteemed owner giving an interview where he clearly demonstrated that he has NFi about the issues. He slagged VAR.
What Evans was let off for had nothing to do with VAR or the technology. KGJ told Evans he was wrong - Evans decided to igonre that and stick to his original error
Bent or inept? No one bothered to ask the most obvious question of all. Did anyone look at bettng patterns?
Personally, I think he is an ego maniac who couldnt believe someone told him he was wrong.
For that he needed to be sacked. Not given 2 weeks holiday.
So th club had calls with the league - why remain silent and giving tacit agreement to their whitewashing

 

[Ironbark]

Was good to see tonight that that VAR checked our offside goal that wasn't and overturned it - with the ref accepting it without personal video review

 

[bikinigirl]

yeah...BUT if everyone felt like that...



FP RANT WARNING:

The refereeing we have suffered was beyond a disgrace and really I can't see how it can fail to turn any Mariners supporter off. When you have so much else against you, very hard for stuff like this not to feel like the last straw. I keep going "despite it". But I'm not f**king happy. And I know too many people who it's crushed. I still think there's value in turning up. But it's a different point.

For a long time my larger fear has been around what's driving our league. What is the "why"? It's certainly not Johnny Warren's why. And it has led to first the inevitable staleness of our product, and then even worse, the overtly plastic nature of the very poorly handled expansion.

If you think you can manufacture attendance and build a league around the constant hype of pretend big clubs in what is still, and always will be, a very small footballing culture, you're sewing in the seeds of your own demise. Hype might work for the opening weekend of a lack lustre block buster. But it won't work for a season long football product or the inevitable ups and downs of any football clubs fortunes.

The "big clubs" have one or two bad season and their crowds are decimated. Why? Because a significant portion of their fans are only loosely associated dabblers looking to enhance their social calendars. They don't come for the love of football. They come because they love feeling like a winner and dominating others.

I'm still a realist. I know all the chimps still love meeting and beating another tribe. But there's a line. If you enjoy watching the Mariners beat the Umina under 13's... There's something wrong with you. And for me this is the peril of prioritising an overtly capitalist goal and the obvious failure in the product that fox had long been driving and creating. The clear market driven bias towards the better funded clubs - because you want better ratings, better sponsors or just greater self importance, makes sense sure... But it sucks balls for everyone who isn't winning. And every year, guess what... we have one winner, a couple of teams who are happy to have done well.. and the rest are all losers. Why should the losers keep coming back? Especially if the referees rip them off. The pundits bash them. Agents exploit them. League owners screw them on scheduling or hosting rights... But these f**king morons have always though it's about the winners. And they gear all their bullshit around it. Even though every year the majority of their core market will be losers.

Football for all of those who really understand it, has always been at it's core an intimate and tribal contest. And if it's a FAIR, and great contest. We can still love it, even when we lose. But if you allow it to be corrupted and geared towards the aforementioned, it should be no surprise when most of your plastic supporters piss off after one or two tough seasons. Because despite what your latest market campaign may have flogged, you were never really "a tribe" you were only a crowd. Just a loose assembly of chimps getting jacked on the wins.

So I understand why the appeal of the NPL is rising, and personally it feels like the Australia cup is a better product right now in terms of it's appeal.

And yet honestly, despite all the bullshit and covid impacted schedules... long term, there really is no insurmountable reason I can see why the refereeing and the teething issues of sub standard broadcasters can't be fixed. So what I value most of all, is survival. And so I turn up. Because I think long term, if we can just hang in there long enough, there's no reason we can trim-tap enough until we have a really decent league.

But yes, I understand why people are f**king furious or boycotting, I understand why people continue supporting, and I think we desperately need to get the soul of the competition right. We need our true "Why". The pundits, the referees, the APL etc... cannot be focused on serving the $$ and therefore by proxy the "bigger clubs". They have to think TRUE big picture. They have to be focused on serving football.

Do that well enough, and you'll take care of everyone, fans, players, clubs etc etc... and attendance and ratings over time will naturally rise again. You can't turn it around with a few words or a hip new commercial.

We need to move with the times. So it's time for transparency, to own all the mistakes (like Evans fiasco), stop the manufacturing and hype, value and respect ourselves enough that we stop serving corporate interests, and invest in grass roots under dogs over cashed up favourites until we make it a truly Australian product at last.

Ween I see Tassie, Canberra, the Gong and the return of NQF etc... along with a proper Pro rel, then I'll know we're truly on the right track. Till then, when it's Sydney team 3 vs Melbourne team 3 and a bunch of hype and commentator drivel... it's just going to survival mode hoping we don't get f**ked too hard while I try and have a few laughs with my dad at the game.

. now that is a proper rant

 

[bikinigirl]

Thank you for the reply Shaun, this sentence alone makes a great deal of difference to my perception and reminds me why I love this club. If this only could have been made public it would have saved me and no doubt many of the other "watchers" on this forum as well as many casual fans from other social media platforms have a much better understanding of the process. To be silent leaves the fan with an impression that there is no recognition of a problem, no action as to a resolution and that concerns have not been heard.


It was 3 weeks off, where his history shows typically reffing 1 game per week. He missed 3 games over 3 weeks. If this was consequences for his entirely inadequate performance as you seem to be indicating, why wasn't this consequence communicated to the fans?

There are a lot of people that think he's got away with this without any consequences, which is totally unacceptable. If this was a corporate situation and not one where we've got so few ref's we're desperate to keep even the worst of them, he'd have been quickly fired for gross incompetence, assuming the defence is repeated human failure due to totally inaccurate judgement, even after being able to see video replays for minutes, on 2 occassions (which anyone with common sense perceives as BIASED/CHEATING/CORRUPTION).


That is effectively a green light to do it again...and again...and again. This was so blatant, repeated and showed total disregard for VAR advice that it could not possibly have been an error of judgement and if it really was then Shaun Evans should be fired for incompetence. That doesn't need to be a public execution (emotive defensive language) but he should not be a referee if he's not competent. It sounds like they admitted he's not competent by saying it was human error TWICE, BLATANTLY AND WITH DISREGARD FOR VAR ADVICE.

I am not without compassion, in fact IRL I'm full of compassion. This was cheating or bias, there are thousands of people that judged it as so and it's blatantly obvious. If you think it wasn't then the alternative is gross incompetence to such an extent that Shaun Evans is not fit to referee at a professional level.

I do appreciate the insight into the process, your reply has made a difference to my sentiment. I did want to sit on it for a day or two before I replied and I did enjoy watching the 4-2 win in Mudgee tonight. However the shine is still dulled by the atrocious refereeing we've been subjected to. It's left me scarred and I can only imagine how it must have affected the players and the coach.

I still think there should be a public statement by the league on this matter.

. this post has made me look at things a little differently ... because it is what people see in the real world where reward and actions often do not align

. what if, in an attempt to 'protect referees from public execution', it has the opposite effect and discourages people from becoming or remaining referees?

. perhaps there are a bunch of young aspiring referees that look at this and think:

• what's the point?
• i do a better job than that week-in, week-out
• i don't get the opportunity to correct something i have missed ... and i'd be smart enough to use it
• there must be some sort of 'boys club'
• about all the scuttlebutt regarding unfair bias, etc, etc
• what's the point?

. considering some of the posts from Cap'n Gus* about referees progressing through the system by 'playing the game' and making decisions based on appeasement rather than the rules just reinforces the concept. yes the problems are systemic and need to be fixed

. Shaun, although it may seem like it to you - this isn't politics. it is sport ... and sport should be sporting. people return to abusive relationships because they feel they have no alternative or until they are finally broken. Mariners fans have been in such a relationship for a long time and i have seen many fans find alternatives over the years ... but unfortunately - now more are just broken. being openly and publicly honest should be a necessity, particularly if action has been taken on identified flaws. molly-coddling a handful of incompetent referees will not save the league, it could ruin it

* my interpretation and recollection of themes, not direct quotes

 

[Forum Phoenix]

. this post has made me look at things a little differently ... because it is what people see in the real world where reward and actions often do not align

. what if, in an attempt to 'protect referees from public execution', it has the opposite effect and discourages people from becoming or remaining referees?

. perhaps there are a bunch of young aspiring referees that look at this and think:

• what's the point?
• i do a better job than that week-in, week-out
• i don't get the opportunity to correct something i have missed ... and i'd be smart enough to use it
• there must be some sort of 'boys club'
• about all the scuttlebutt regarding unfair bias, etc, etc
• what's the point?

. considering some of the posts from Cap'n Gus* about referees progressing through the system by 'playing the game' and making decisions based on appeasement rather than the rules just reinforces the concept. yes the problems are systemic and need to be fixed

. Shaun, although it may seem like it to you - this isn't politics. it is sport ... and sport should be sporting. people return to abusive relationships because they feel they have no alternative or until they are finally broken. Mariners fans have been in such a relationship for a long time and i have seen many fans find alternatives over the years ... but unfortunately - now more are just broken. being openly and publicly honest should be a necessity, particularly if action has been taken on identified flaws. molly-coddling a handful of incompetent referees will not save the league, it could ruin it

* my interpretation and recollection of themes, not direct quotes

After someone else's suggestion I now think it's so bad and damaging to the game here that the APL should be allocating proper funds to hire in a team of international referees each season. And provide bonuses or sanctions based on performance reviews.

Based on what we have produced and continue to produce, we clearly don't have high enough quality referees or systems to adequately train and produce additional highly skilled referees. Delovski was the one most celebrated. Why? Simply because he let so much go that at least the didn't stop the flow of games or get conned by simulation all the time. which was definitely preferable to wankers like Breeze or Evans who make the games all about them.

It's a difficult job, and we are clearly struggling to produce reliable local referees, we have to look outside and import the skilled labour we need. Because it's such a serious detriment to the product here. We can't know the cost it's had. But it wouldn't be insignificant. And long term, it really could mean the difference between success and failure.

 

[Ozhammer]

Not sure I agree entirely on this FP, as refereeing isn’t just about the A Leagues and is therefore probably best left with FA. APL almost certainly doesn’t have the resources itself to manage a programme that spans from 8 yo cadet referees right through to the elite level (and I do use the term elite under advisement) and I’m also not sure the APL can just skim off the cream of the officiating pool, leaving FA to deal with everything else.

Refereeing is a vitally important part of the game and there needs to be a clearly defined structure and development pathway for officials from grass roots all the way up to the top level, which costs money and requires proper management and oversight.

That said, the FA should be held to account by the APL for any inadequate refereeing performances but just like players, officials need adequate training resources provided to them, if they are to become the best that they can be. Do we know if this is happening? Not really and I suspect that it is not, so this is something that could certainly be looked into, with additional resources provided to those referees who aspire to officiate at the highest levels.

There are good, honest, decent referees and assistant referees out there and so it’s highly unfair to tar them all with the same brush over the actions of a small select few. That said, if someone wants to operate at an elite level, they should naturally expect to come under a much higher level of scrutiny over their actions and performance level and that is arguably where targeted resourcing would be of most benefit. Make that programme a transparent one where a referee’s performance is honestly assessed and constructive criticism and additional training provided where necessary and we might just get where we need to in time.

 

[Man Overboard]

We have overseas owners, we have overseas players, we have overseas coaches. Maybe each year the APL could fund a couple of marquee refs from overseas leagues to raise the standards

 

[Iain Shand]

people return to abusive relationships because they feel they have no alternative or until they are finally broken. Mariners fans have been in such a relationship for a long time and i have seen many fans find alternatives over the years ... but unfortunately - now more are just broken.

Please don't state supporting a team is the equivalent of being in an abusive relationship.

Some really interesting points and discussions being made by everyone but with this being an "anonymous" forum we don't know who we are communicating with sometimes and what situation they could be in/have been in. Best to be careful when saying something like that. This is not a go at you personally, just something i wanted to flag for the forum as a whole.

 

[Ozhammer]

We have overseas owners, we have overseas players, we have overseas coaches. Maybe each year the APL could fund a couple of marquee refs from overseas leagues to raise the standards

Iirc there was a brief period where Australia had a referee exchange programme with the J League, so perhaps something like that could be revisited (assuming they weren’t so desperately underwhelmed by the candidates we sent them)?

 

[turbo]

That said, the FA should be held to account by the APL for any inadequate refereeing performances but just like players

How do you propose that works? The APL could demand Evans be stood down for the season, FA says no then what? FA has a monopoly on officials at the moment so what leverage does the APL have? They could say we're not paying but FA will withhold officials and grind the league to a halt.

 

[Ozhammer]

How do you propose that works? The APL could demand Evans be stood down for the season, FA says no then what? FA has a monopoly on officials at the moment so what leverage does the APL have? They could say we're not paying but FA will withhold officials and grind the league to a halt.

There would obviously have to be some sort of cooperative relationship in play and both sides of it would need to want is best for the game. Not saying that would be easy or straightforward but not insurmountable surely?

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Not sure I agree entirely on this FP, as refereeing isn’t just about the A Leagues and is therefore probably best left with FA. APL almost certainly doesn’t have the resources itself to manage a programme that spans from 8 yo cadet referees right through to the elite level (and I do use the term elite under advisement) and I’m also not sure the APL can just skim off the cream of the officiating pool, leaving FA to deal with everything else.

Refereeing is a vitally important part of the game and there needs to be a clearly defined structure and development pathway for officials from grass roots all the way up to the top level, which costs money and requires proper management and oversight.

That said, the FA should be held to account by the APL for any inadequate refereeing performances but just like players, officials need adequate training resources provided to them, if they are to become the best that they can be. Do we know if this is happening? Not really and I suspect that it is not, so this is something that could certainly be looked into, with additional resources provided to those referees who aspire to officiate at the highest levels.

There are good, honest, decent referees and assistant referees out there and so it’s highly unfair to tar them all with the same brush over the actions of a small select few. That said, if someone wants to operate at an elite level, they should naturally expect to come under a much higher level of scrutiny over their actions and performance level and that is arguably where targeted resourcing would be of most benefit. Make that programme a transparent one where a referee’s performance is honestly assessed and constructive criticism and additional training provided where necessary and we might just get where we need to in time.

Not sure I agree entirely on this FP, as refereeing isn’t just about the A Leagues and is therefore probably best left with FA. APL almost certainly doesn’t have the resources itself to manage a programme that spans from 8 yo cadet referees right through to the elite level (and I do use the term elite under advisement) and I’m also not sure the APL can just skim off the cream of the officiating pool, leaving FA to deal with everything else.

Refereeing is a vitally important part of the game and there needs to be a clearly defined structure and development pathway for officials from grass roots all the way up to the top level, which costs money and requires proper management and oversight.

That said, the FA should be held to account by the APL for any inadequate refereeing performances but just like players, officials need adequate training resources provided to them, if they are to become the best that they can be. Do we know if this is happening? Not really and I suspect that it is not, so this is something that could certainly be looked into, with additional resources provided to those referees who aspire to officiate at the highest levels.

There are good, honest, decent referees and assistant referees out there and so it’s highly unfair to tar them all with the same brush over the actions of a small select few. That said, if someone wants to operate at an elite level, they should naturally expect to come under a much higher level of scrutiny over their actions and performance level and that is arguably where targeted resourcing would be of most benefit. Make that programme a transparent one where a referee’s performance is honestly assessed and constructive criticism and additional training provided where necessary and we might just get where we need to in time.

Yeah all good points OH. And agree. But I was purely talking about the elite level referees administering our league.

Imo we have a very serious problem now that we can’t wait for the next generation of better trained referees to hopefully emerge from.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Please don't state supporting a team is the equivalent of being in an abusive relationship.

Some really interesting points and discussions being made by everyone but with this being an "anonymous" forum we don't know who we are communicating with sometimes and what situation they could be in/have been in. Best to be careful when saying something like that. This is not a go at you personally, just something i wanted to flag for the forum as a whole.

Good point.

 

[Man Overboard]

'Rebel' cricketers, and tennis players in our sports history have come about due to insular, self serving inward looking sporting organisations. How beholden is the APL to the use of FA's referees? Could the APL fund its own pool of officials? How does it work in overseas leagues?

 

[turbo]

There would obviously have to be some sort of cooperative relationship in play and both sides of it would need to want is best for the game. Not saying that would be easy or straightforward but not insurmountable surely?

The same FA that practically went to war with what is now the APL and then selected Macarthur and WU for the Fox payout?

I don’t have a lot of faith in the FA unfortunately and their lack of serious action over Evans blatantly ripping us off supports that

 

[FFC Mariner]

In English football you have PGMOL

Professional Game Match Officials Limited

Separate body funded by EPL, EFL and the FA (takes in all professional leagues and the FA Cup) - formed in 2001 to improve standards.

Here, a similar body would I guess be funded by FA, APL and the NPL? So that will never happen

FA have proved since Uncle Frank started that they cannot execute strategy and the "breakaway" APL seems no better.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Was good to see tonight that that VAR checked our offside goal that wasn't and overturned it - with the ref accepting it without personal video review

Always been the way with offside - ref doesn't review the objective, black-and-white ones.

Though, it's still a problem that we don't get to see the footage. Let's be honest - we'd be livid about it if we were Macarthur

 

[style_cafe]

We have overseas owners, we have overseas players, we have overseas coaches. Maybe each year the APL could fund a couple of marquee refs from overseas leagues to raise the standards

Wouldn`t the APL then appoint the marquee refs to the marquee games?
Marquee games being any game that involves SFC, MV, MC, AU, WSW...