CCM Fans and the club PT 2

[Ironbark]

Maybe it would help if Shaun offers dinner and a massage too

Evans?

 

[adz]

Evans?

Was thinking @Shaun Mielekamp but that could work too ?

 

[FFC Mariner]

Hey Dobbie

Monty and Ken themselves were both given a face to face meeting with the boss of the referee's. I myself had several phone hook ups and meetings with various APL senior management as well.
The reality is that Shaun Evans was stood down and had many weeks off. The FA admitted the calls were wrong and of course they were horrendously wrong - to be given a rationale that the ref simply stuffed up and totally got it all wrong is actually very hard to argue against.

We are still dealing with human beings and the decision to not publicly execute the ref was the position of the FA and the APL. For what ever reason it was that Shaun Evans refused the advise from the VAR was only he will know (and maybe he cant even explain) but that is for him to deal with his employer on.
Some may have noticed that this did trigger a full review of the VAR processes and for me it is clearly noticeable the improvement in speed and application of the VAR decisions.

I still can't believe the calls were made against us that way, we have had some calls actually go our way this season but that is of little solice.

This is a game wide issue at all levels to find ways to improve the refereeing - I'm not one to bash the ref's up everytime they make a mistake as I think it is important that anyone thinking of being a ref whether that is on a Saturday morning U5's grassroots or in the A-League is not scared off by the fear of what happens if they crack under pressure.

The reason for the supposed silence has been more about this bigger picture issue of trying to help ref's improve and be encouraged to ref with confidence. Plus making a lot of noise and drama in this instance would not have achieved any real outcomes, the real work to properly fix the problem has to be done behind the scenes by the experts in the industry and that for us on the technical side is Ken Schembri and Monty.

I'm with Dobbie here - pretty well over the league TBH. Evans got a 2 week holiday. Hardly stood down and the silence from the club was deafening.
I suspect we arent the only 2. The club is in a downward death spiral and it seems that no one has worked it out (falling revenue, cut costs, worse product, falling revenue etc) - or if they have there is no plan to try and fix it.
Football is only about money - it is the harshest most brutal form of capitalism where the weak are left to die. Much as people might wish otherwise, thats the way it is. Watch Chelsea hurtle backwards now the blood money has gone.
At best, after every season bar S1 I'm 3 games next year tops.
Your boss dosnt care really, we are underfunded and cant compete - until that changes, nothingelse changes.
Why is anyone bothering? Even the council dont want CCM

 

[FFC Mariner]

Awaits the "if everyone felt like that" virtue signalling.

The tribe has spoken and it seems the coast doesnt give a flying anymore

 

[Ironbark]

Don't disagree the game appears to be in recession in Aus.
Current world events would be making an impact too, above and beyond this. I know heaps of regulars who haven't been comfortable to attend since covid, which has had a mixed impact on buying memberships.
I'm sure going forward that others will be affected by cost of living increases in general and may also impact.

 

[Tevor]

I for one feel very similar to Dobbie, the APL made a song and dance about taking the game to the next level blah, blah, blah and I cannot pin point one thing that is better this season than any in the past. In fact we are worst off, poor TV coverage, poor officiating (next level incompetence), poor crowds, rubbish App, the list goes on. Even Fox on a shoestring budget was better than what we have now. I personally know so many people who used to attend games and watch on TV but are just losing interest now. Its tough getting these people back.

The silence from what Evans did in that game is not the right decision and I get what you are saying but the football community deserved more. From the sidelines it looks as if the APL is just as bad as FA. They didn't read the public opinion on that game, neutrals all through social media were making big sounds about how that actually happened. The APL may not be around long enough to know if they made the right decision or not. Does P- have any KPI's on viewership and $$$ being provided? I'd be surprised if they don't, they are probably feeling like they backed a Donkey in the APL.

When the Socceroos and Matildas flop in the next 12 months can the game recover?

 

[VonBowellski]

@Shaun Mielekamp or @Iain Shand - Given the covid climate and the general dissatisfation with the league and poor attendance numbers, what do our club memberships numbers look like? Is there a decrese in numbers across the board or have you found that people have still joined up but maybe on different membership packages?

 

[Tevor]

Don't disagree the game appears to be in recession in Aus.
Current world events would be making an impact too, above and beyond this. I know heaps of regulars who haven't been comfortable to attend since covid, which has had a mixed impact on buying memberships.
I'm sure going forward that others will be affected by cost of living increases in general and may also impact.

Melbourne teams have not been getting good crowds, have you seen the crowds at the two AFL games? That is not a public scared of going to a full stadium. I'm very sure Covid isn't that big a deal now and is just providing excuses for a poorly administered sport.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Melbourne teams have not been getting good crowds, have you seen the crowds at the two AFL games? That is not a public scared of going to a full stadium. I'm very sure Covid isn't that big a deal now and is just providing excuses for a poorly administered sport.

Agree - NRL crowds prove that its the terrible management of this league that is at fault - still, hes a good bloke so thats fine eh?

 

[adz]

Agree - NRL crowds prove that its the terrible management of this league that is at fault - still, hes a good bloke so thats fine eh?

But did the NRL tweet their disappointment at the crowd sizes? If not, someone best get onto that one.

Yeah, I'm easy to wind up ?

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Go to the NRL model where the video ref makes the final decision and you can hear the reason why over the audio. Takes the ref out of the equation. Ludicrous having a ref looking at a tiny screen set up on the sideline with coaches 2 metres away yelling in their ear.

This. Obviously. Just madness.

 

[Ironbark]

Melbourne teams have not been getting good crowds, have you seen the crowds at the two AFL games? That is not a public scared of going to a full stadium. I'm very sure Covid isn't that big a deal now and is just providing excuses for a poorly administered sport.

Agreed. I was only talking about coast locals and people I know - so essentially anecdotal only.
I am the first to say 'anecdotes do not data make'

 

[BrisRecky]

I'm with Dobbie here - pretty well over the league TBH. Evans got a 2 week holiday. Hardly stood down and the silence from the club was deafening.
I suspect we arent the only 2. The club is in a downward death spiral and it seems that no one has worked it out (falling revenue, cut costs, worse product, falling revenue etc) - or if they have there is no plan to try and fix it.
Football is only about money - it is the harshest most brutal form of capitalism where the weak are left to die. Much as people might wish otherwise, thats the way it is. Watch Chelsea hurtle backwards now the blood money has gone.
At best, after every season bar S1 I'm 3 games next year tops.
Your boss dosnt care really, we are underfunded and cant compete - until that changes, nothingelse changes.
Why is anyone bothering? Even the council dont want CCM

Thurbs got some outstanding points right here

 

[FFC Mariner]

Thurbs got some outstanding points right here

Aww thanks bud

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Thurbs got some outstanding points right here

yeah...BUT if everyone felt like that...



FP RANT WARNING:

The refereeing we have suffered was beyond a disgrace and really I can't see how it can fail to turn any Mariners supporter off. When you have so much else against you, very hard for stuff like this not to feel like the last straw. I keep going "despite it". But I'm not f**king happy. And I know too many people who it's crushed. I still think there's value in turning up. But it's a different point.

For a long time my larger fear has been around what's driving our league. What is the "why"? It's certainly not Johnny Warren's why. And it has led to first the inevitable staleness of our product, and then even worse, the overtly plastic nature of the very poorly handled expansion.

If you think you can manufacture attendance and build a league around the constant hype of pretend big clubs in what is still, and always will be, a very small footballing culture, you're sewing in the seeds of your own demise. Hype might work for the opening weekend of a lack lustre block buster. But it won't work for a season long football product or the inevitable ups and downs of any football clubs fortunes.

The "big clubs" have one or two bad season and their crowds are decimated. Why? Because a significant portion of their fans are only loosely associated dabblers looking to enhance their social calendars. They don't come for the love of football. They come because they love feeling like a winner and dominating others.

I'm still a realist. I know all the chimps still love meeting and beating another tribe. But there's a line. If you enjoy watching the Mariners beat the Umina under 13's... There's something wrong with you. And for me this is the peril of prioritising an overtly capitalist goal and the obvious failure in the product that fox had long been driving and creating. The clear market driven bias towards the better funded clubs - because you want better ratings, better sponsors or just greater self importance, makes sense sure... But it sucks balls for everyone who isn't winning. And every year, guess what... we have one winner, a couple of teams who are happy to have done well.. and the rest are all losers. Why should the losers keep coming back? Especially if the referees rip them off. The pundits bash them. Agents exploit them. League owners screw them on scheduling or hosting rights... But these f**king morons have always though it's about the winners. And they gear all their bullshit around it. Even though every year the majority of their core market will be losers.

Football for all of those who really understand it, has always been at it's core an intimate and tribal contest. And if it's a FAIR, and great contest. We can still love it, even when we lose. But if you allow it to be corrupted and geared towards the aforementioned, it should be no surprise when most of your plastic supporters piss off after one or two tough seasons. Because despite what your latest market campaign may have flogged, you were never really "a tribe" you were only a crowd. Just a loose assembly of chimps getting jacked on the wins.

So I understand why the appeal of the NPL is rising, and personally it feels like the Australia cup is a better product right now in terms of it's appeal.

And yet honestly, despite all the bullshit and covid impacted schedules... long term, there really is no insurmountable reason I can see why the refereeing and the teething issues of sub standard broadcasters can't be fixed. So what I value most of all, is survival. And so I turn up. Because I think long term, if we can just hang in there long enough, there's no reason we can trim-tap enough until we have a really decent league.

But yes, I understand why people are f**king furious or boycotting, I understand why people continue supporting, and I think we desperately need to get the soul of the competition right. We need our true "Why". The pundits, the referees, the APL etc... cannot be focused on serving the $$ and therefore by proxy the "bigger clubs". They have to think TRUE big picture. They have to be focused on serving football.

Do that well enough, and you'll take care of everyone, fans, players, clubs etc etc... and attendance and ratings over time will naturally rise again. You can't turn it around with a few words or a hip new commercial.

We need to move with the times. So it's time for transparency, to own all the mistakes (like Evans fiasco), stop the manufacturing and hype, value and respect ourselves enough that we stop serving corporate interests, and invest in grass roots under dogs over cashed up favourites until we make it a truly Australian product at last.

When I see Tassie, Canberra, the Gong and the return of NQF etc... along with a proper Pro rel, then I'll know we're truly on the right track. Till then, when it's Sydney team 3 vs Melbourne team 3 and a bunch of hype and commentator drivel... I'm just going into survival mode hoping we don't get f**ked too hard while I try and have a few laughs with my dad at the game.

 

[Kilsin]

yeah...BUT if everyone felt like that...



FP RANT WARNING:

The refereeing we have suffered was beyond a disgrace and really I can't see how it can fail to turn any Mariners supporter off. When you have so much else against you, very hard for stuff like this not to feel like the last straw. I keep going "despite it". But I'm not f**king happy. And I know too many people who it's crushed. I still think there's value in turning up. But it's a different point.

For a long time my larger fear has been around what's driving our league. What is the "why"? It's certainly not Johnny Warren's why. And it has led to first the inevitable staleness of our product, and then even worse, the overtly plastic nature of the very poorly handled expansion.

If you think you can manufacture attendance and build a league around the constant hype of pretend big clubs in what is still, and always will be, a very small footballing culture, you're sewing in the seeds of your own demise. Hype might work for the opening weekend of a lack lustre block buster. But it won't work for a season long football product or the inevitable ups and downs of any football clubs fortunes.

The "big clubs" have one or two bad season and their crowds are decimated. Why? Because a significant portion of their fans are only loosely associated dabblers looking to enhance their social calendars. They don't come for the love of football. They come because they love feeling like a winner and dominating others.

I'm still a realist. I know all the chimps still love meeting and beating another tribe. But there's a line. If you enjoy watching the Mariners beat the Umina under 13's... There's something wrong with you. And for me this is the peril of prioritising an overtly capitalist goal and in the obvious failure if the product that fox had long been driving and creating. The clear market driven bias towards the better funded clubs - because you want better ratings, better sponsors or just greater self importance, makes sense sure... But it sucks balls for everyone who isn't winning. And every year, guess what... we have one winner, a couple of teams who are happy to have done well.. and the rest are all losers. Why should the losers keep coming back? Especially if the referees rip them off. The pundits bash them. Agents exploit them. League owners screw them on scheduling or hosting rights... But these f**king morons have always though it's about the winners. And they gear all their bullshit around it. Even though every year the majority of their core market will be losers.

Football for all of those who really understand it, has always been at it's core an intimate and tribal contest. And if it's a FAIR, and great contest. We can still love it, even when we lose. But if you allow it to be corrupted and geared towards the aforementioned, it should be no surprise when most of your plastic supporters piss off after one or two tough seasons. Because despite what your latest market campaign may have flogged, you were never really "a tribe" you were only a crowd. Just a loose assembly of chimps getting jacked on the wins.

So I understand why the appeal of the NPL is rising, and personally it feels like the Australia cup is a better product right now in terms of it's appeal.

And yet honestly, despite all the bullshit and covid impacted schedules... long term, there really is no insurmountable reason I can see why the refereeing and the teething issues of sub standard broadcasters can't be fixed. So what I value most of all, is survival. And so I turn up. Because I think long term, if we can just hang in there long enough, there's no reason we can trim-tap enough until we have a really decent league.

But yes, I understand why people are f**king furious or boycotting, I understand why people continue supporting, and I think we desperately need to get the soul of the competition right. We need our true "Why". The pundits, the referees, the APL etc... cannot be focused on serving the $$ and therefore by proxy the "bigger clubs". They have to think TRUE big picture. They have to be focused on serving football.

Do that well enough, and you'll take care of everyone, fans, players, clubs etc etc... and attendance and ratings over time will naturally rise again. You can't turn it around with a few words or a hip new commercial.

We need to move with the times. So it's time for transparency, to own all the mistakes (like Evans fiasco), stop the manufacturing and hype, value and respect ourselves enough that we stop serving corporate interests, and invest in grass roots under dogs over cashed up favourites until we make it a truly Australian product at last.

Ween I see Tassie, Canberra, the Gong and the return of NQF etc... along with a proper Pro rel, then I'll know we're truly on the right track. Till then, when it's Sydney team 3 vs Melbourne team 3 and a bunch of hype and commentator drivel... it's just going to survival mode hoping we don't get f**ked too hard while I try and have a few laughs with my dad at the game.

Great post FP!

My mate and I have been membership holding members and avid home game supporters for around 12 years, even through multiple wooden spoon seasons (we just drank more to get us through it, haha) but this season has almost broken us with this ref crap...instead of scheduling work around games we've both just gone to work instead and have this sinking feeling of being defeated before we even play thanks to the poor officiating.

It's hard enough to win against every club with bigger budgets and more depth than us while playing fair let alone being against the on-field ref and VAR too...

We battle on but can't hide the fact it has dulled the experience for us and the love of the game. I hope things turn around soon in the way of officiating and we can get back to just supporting the boys and enjoying football without all the distractions and negatives taking away from that experience.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Great post FP!

My mate and I have been membership holding members and avid home game supporters for around 12 years, even through multiple wooden spoon seasons (we just drank more to get us through it, haha) but this season has almost broken us with this ref crap...instead of scheduling work around games we've both just gone to work instead and have this sinking feeling of being defeated before we even play thanks to the poor officiating.

It's hard enough to win against every club with bigger budgets and more depth than us while playing fair let alone being against the on-field ref and VAR too...

We battle on but can't hide the fact it has dulled the experience for us and the love of the game. I hope things turn around soon in the way of officiating and we can get back to just supporting the boys and enjoying football without all the distractions and negatives taking away from that experience.

100% It makes it so tough to bear. The peak A league meme, really is because we do so much to get in the way of ourselves in this league. But none of it is truly that huge or insurmountable imho.

 

[BrisRecky]

yeah...BUT if everyone felt like that...



FP RANT WARNING:

The refereeing we have suffered was beyond a disgrace and really I can't see how it can fail to turn any Mariners supporter off. When you have so much else against you, very hard for stuff like this not to feel like the last straw. I keep going "despite it". But I'm not f**king happy. And I know too many people who it's crushed. I still think there's value in turning up. But it's a different point.

For a long time my larger fear has been around what's driving our league. What is the "why"? It's certainly not Johnny Warren's why. And it has led to first the inevitable staleness of our product, and then even worse, the overtly plastic nature of the very poorly handled expansion.

If you think you can manufacture attendance and build a league around the constant hype of pretend big clubs in what is still, and always will be, a very small footballing culture, you're sewing in the seeds of your own demise. Hype might work for the opening weekend of a lack lustre block buster. But it won't work for a season long football product or the inevitable ups and downs of any football clubs fortunes.

The "big clubs" have one or two bad season and their crowds are decimated. Why? Because a significant portion of their fans are only loosely associated dabblers looking to enhance their social calendars. They don't come for the love of football. They come because they love feeling like a winner and dominating others.

I'm still a realist. I know all the chimps still love meeting and beating another tribe. But there's a line. If you enjoy watching the Mariners beat the Umina under 13's... There's something wrong with you. And for me this is the peril of prioritising an overtly capitalist goal and the obvious failure in the product that fox had long been driving and creating. The clear market driven bias towards the better funded clubs - because you want better ratings, better sponsors or just greater self importance, makes sense sure... But it sucks balls for everyone who isn't winning. And every year, guess what... we have one winner, a couple of teams who are happy to have done well.. and the rest are all losers. Why should the losers keep coming back? Especially if the referees rip them off. The pundits bash them. Agents exploit them. League owners screw them on scheduling or hosting rights... But these f**king morons have always though it's about the winners. And they gear all their bullshit around it. Even though every year the majority of their core market will be losers.

Football for all of those who really understand it, has always been at it's core an intimate and tribal contest. And if it's a FAIR, and great contest. We can still love it, even when we lose. But if you allow it to be corrupted and geared towards the aforementioned, it should be no surprise when most of your plastic supporters piss off after one or two tough seasons. Because despite what your latest market campaign may have flogged, you were never really "a tribe" you were only a crowd. Just a loose assembly of chimps getting jacked on the wins.

So I understand why the appeal of the NPL is rising, and personally it feels like the Australia cup is a better product right now in terms of it's appeal.

And yet honestly, despite all the bullshit and covid impacted schedules... long term, there really is no insurmountable reason I can see why the refereeing and the teething issues of sub standard broadcasters can't be fixed. So what I value most of all, is survival. And so I turn up. Because I think long term, if we can just hang in there long enough, there's no reason we can trim-tap enough until we have a really decent league.

But yes, I understand why people are f**king furious or boycotting, I understand why people continue supporting, and I think we desperately need to get the soul of the competition right. We need our true "Why". The pundits, the referees, the APL etc... cannot be focused on serving the $$ and therefore by proxy the "bigger clubs". They have to think TRUE big picture. They have to be focused on serving football.

Do that well enough, and you'll take care of everyone, fans, players, clubs etc etc... and attendance and ratings over time will naturally rise again. You can't turn it around with a few words or a hip new commercial.

We need to move with the times. So it's time for transparency, to own all the mistakes (like Evans fiasco), stop the manufacturing and hype, value and respect ourselves enough that we stop serving corporate interests, and invest in grass roots under dogs over cashed up favourites until we make it a truly Australian product at last.

Ween I see Tassie, Canberra, the Gong and the return of NQF etc... along with a proper Pro rel, then I'll know we're truly on the right track. Till then, when it's Sydney team 3 vs Melbourne team 3 and a bunch of hype and commentator drivel... it's just going to survival mode hoping we don't get f**ked too hard while I try and have a few laughs with my dad at the game.

Well ranted FP

 

[Corsair]

Dobbie...you need a hug bro.

PM me. Come for a massage (discounted) and we can have a coffee and feed (my shout) after.

Thank you Wombat, I really appreciate this offer, both spiritually and financially. You are a generous soul, which is rare these days and has lifted my spirits. I appreciate it.

 

[Corsair]

Monty and Ken themselves were both given a face to face meeting with the boss of the referee's. I myself had several phone hook ups and meetings with various APL senior management as well.

Thank you for the reply Shaun, this sentence alone makes a great deal of difference to my perception and reminds me why I love this club. If this only could have been made public it would have saved me and no doubt many of the other "watchers" on this forum as well as many casual fans from other social media platforms have a much better understanding of the process. To be silent leaves the fan with an impression that there is no recognition of a problem, no action as to a resolution and that concerns have not been heard.

The reality is that Shaun Evans was stood down and had many weeks off.

It was 3 weeks off, where his history shows typically reffing 1 game per week. He missed 3 games over 3 weeks. If this was consequences for his entirely inadequate performance as you seem to be indicating, why wasn't this consequence communicated to the fans?

There are a lot of people that think he's got away with this without any consequences, which is totally unacceptable. If this was a corporate situation and not one where we've got so few ref's we're desperate to keep even the worst of them, he'd have been quickly fired for gross incompetence, assuming the defence is repeated human failure due to totally inaccurate judgement, even after being able to see video replays for minutes, on 2 occassions (which anyone with common sense perceives as BIASED/CHEATING/CORRUPTION).

We are still dealing with human beings and the decision to not publicly execute the ref was the position of the FA and the APL.

That is effectively a green light to do it again...and again...and again. This was so blatant, repeated and showed total disregard for VAR advice that it could not possibly have been an error of judgement and if it really was then Shaun Evans should be fired for incompetence. That doesn't need to be a public execution (emotive defensive language) but he should not be a referee if he's not competent. It sounds like they admitted he's not competent by saying it was human error TWICE, BLATANTLY AND WITH DISREGARD FOR VAR ADVICE.

I am not without compassion, in fact IRL I'm full of compassion. This was cheating or bias, there are thousands of people that judged it as so and it's blatantly obvious. If you think it wasn't then the alternative is gross incompetence to such an extent that Shaun Evans is not fit to referee at a professional level.

I do appreciate the insight into the process, your reply has made a difference to my sentiment. I did want to sit on it for a day or two before I replied and I did enjoy watching the 4-2 win in Mudgee tonight. However the shine is still dulled by the atrocious refereeing we've been subjected to. It's left me scarred and I can only imagine how it must have affected the players and the coach.

I still think there should be a public statement by the league on this matter.