Will Trump be Charged with Treason

[Spacks]

isn't this the point where you declare victory

Oh I won when I didn't get the vaccine, only people that should have gotten the vaccines were those over 65 to be honest, their immune systems are weak so it makes sense.

edit: but it should always have been a voluntary choice, not mandated or coerced. That's primarily my issue with the whole thing.

 

[true believer]

Oh I won when I didn't get the vaccine, only people that should have gotten the vaccines were those over 65 to be honest, their immune systems are weak so it makes sense.

eugenics 101 , head measurement maybe ?

 

[marinermick]

Lol myocardial scarring isn't reversible, because the body cannot repair cardiac cells.

Half life of a covid vaccine? I've got no idea. I'd be interested in the answer and how you came to that conclusion though!

So feel free to add a link to your source.

lol, it is reversible:

Scientists find way to heal scars left behind by heart attacks

A new method can reverse the loss of elasticity of damaged heart tissue following heart attacks and minimise complications with pumping and transporting blood.

www.sydney.edu.au

and

Study Reveals Target for Reversing Scar Tissue After Heart Attack

The new discovery provides a potential therapeutic target to prevent permanent scarring in human hearts, allowing heart cells to regenerate.

www.massgeneral.org

and

https://www.singhealth.com.sg/news/singapore-health/reversing-heart-muscle-scarring

and

https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2018.10.094

The fact that patients were able to reverse myocarditis in this study you linked (you know, the 0.00000057% of the trial, show how mild the side effect was.

Also, the fact that you don’t know what the half life of the Covid vaccines were, coupled with the dosing regime, clearly demonstrates you very poor knowledge of ascertaining any long term effect could “suddenly appear” in the long term.

Those advocating that vaccines will have new long term side effects, that have not emerged in the first few months, have a very poor knowledge of vaccine pharmacokinetics, the body immune’s system and immunology in general.

 

[marinermick]

Oh I won when I didn't get the vaccine, only people that should have gotten the vaccines were those over 65 to be honest, their immune systems are weak so it makes sense.

But aren’t over 65s more prone to the massive myocarditis and heart problem threat you are clearly trumpeting?

 

[Spacks]

lol, it is reversible:

Scientists find way to heal scars left behind by heart attacks

A new method can reverse the loss of elasticity of damaged heart tissue following heart attacks and minimise complications with pumping and transporting blood.

www.sydney.edu.au

and

Study Reveals Target for Reversing Scar Tissue After Heart Attack

The new discovery provides a potential therapeutic target to prevent permanent scarring in human hearts, allowing heart cells to regenerate.

www.massgeneral.org

and

https://www.singhealth.com.sg/news/singapore-health/reversing-heart-muscle-scarring

and

https://www.jacc.org/doi/10.1016/j.jacc.2018.10.094

Ok, let's explore the first article.

Further tests found tropoelastin reduced scar size and essentially stabilises it by increasing its elastin content and therefore decreasing the stiffness of the scar.

Additional experiments on human cardiac fibroblasts (a subset of human heart cells responsible for maintaining the structure of a normal heart), in a petri dish showed after the cells were treated with tropoelastin, they were able to generate elastin.

Elastin is a crucial protein that gives human tissue elasticity and the ability to stretch.

“What we have found is highly encouraging,” says senior author Associate Professor James Chong.

“We hope to continue developing the method so it can eventually be used in a clinical setting and used to treat and improve the lives of the millions of heart failure patients worldwide.”

So they haven't actually repaired any fibrosis in an actual human patient using this method yet, got ya!

Ok, the 2nd article

This modification is made by an enzyme called lysyl hydroxylase 2, an enzyme that is linked to permanent scarring in other organs in diseases of fibrosis.
“No one has studied the effect of blocking this enzyme in the context of heart attack,” says Akam-Baxter. Her research team plans to study whether this and other inhibitors can effectively prevent permanent scarring in the heart after an MI. The researchers will also investigate whether scar tissue can be reversed in other organs.

“The numbers of deaths and amount of heart failure that results from scarring after MI are staggering,”

lol

so none of these are actually being used currently in the repair of myocardial fibrosis? Wow, so helpful.

The fact that patients were able to reverse myocarditis in this study you linked (you know, the 0.00000057% of the trial, show how mild the side effect was.

I guess we'll find out just how mild myocardial fibrosis is, won't we!

Also, the fact that you don’t know what the half life of the Covid vaccines were, coupled with the dosing regime, clearly demonstrates you very poor knowledge of ascertaining any long term effect could “suddenly appear” in the long term.

The booster (third immunization) dose at 6 to 10 months increased the half-life of the serum–neutralizing antibody (nAb) titers to 76 days from 56 to 66 days after the primary 2-dose vaccination. A second booster dose (fourth immunization) a year after the primary vaccination further increased the half-life to 88 days. However, despite this modestly improved durability in nAb responses against the ancestral (WA.1) strain, there was a loss of neutralization capacity against the Omicron subvariants BA.2.75.2, BQ.1.1, and XBB.1.5 (48-, 71-, and 66-fold drop in titers, respectively, relative to the WA.1 strain). Although only 45% to 65% of participants demonstrated a detectable nAb titer against the newer variants after the booster (third dose), the response declined to below the detection limit in almost all individuals by 6 months. In contrast, booster vaccination induced antigen-specific memory B and T cells that persisted for at least 6 months.

The durability of serum antibody responses improves only marginally following booster immunizations with the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna mRNA vaccines.

Durability of immune responses to mRNA booster vaccination against COVID-19 - PMC

Maintaining durable immunity following vaccination represents a major challenge, but whether mRNA booster vaccination improves durability is unknown. We measured antibody responses in 55 healthy adults, who received a booster dose of the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Those advocating that vaccines will have long term side effects have very poor knowledge of vaccine pharmacokinetics, the body immune’s system and immunology in general.

does that apply to all vaccines or just mRNA vaccines?

 

[Spacks]

But aren’t over 65s more prone to the massive myocarditis and heart problem threat you are clearly trumpeting?

no,

Based on passive surveillance reporting in the US, the risk of myocarditis after receiving mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines was increased across multiple age and sex strata and was highest after the second vaccination dose in adolescent males and young men.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346#:~:text=The%20rates%20of%20myocarditis%20cases,years%20(52.4%20and%2056.3%20per

Pericarditis and myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccines have been mostly reported in males under 40 years of age, and mostly after the second dose. However, these conditions do occur in both females and males, at any age, and after any dose.

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/2024-01/covid-19-vaccination-guidance-on-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccines.pdf

 

[marinermick]

Ok, let's explore the first article.



So they haven't actually repaired any fibrosis in an actual human patient using this method yet, got ya!

Ok, the 2nd article



lol

so none of these are actually being used currently in the repair of myocardial fibrosis? Wow, so helpful.

I guess we'll find out just how mild myocardial fibrosis is, won't we!





The booster (third immunization) dose at 6 to 10 months increased the half-life of the serum–neutralizing antibody (nAb) titers to 76 days from 56 to 66 days after the primary 2-dose vaccination. A second booster dose (fourth immunization) a year after the primary vaccination further increased the half-life to 88 days. However, despite this modestly improved durability in nAb responses against the ancestral (WA.1) strain, there was a loss of neutralization capacity against the Omicron subvariants BA.2.75.2, BQ.1.1, and XBB.1.5 (48-, 71-, and 66-fold drop in titers, respectively, relative to the WA.1 strain). Although only 45% to 65% of participants demonstrated a detectable nAb titer against the newer variants after the booster (third dose), the response declined to below the detection limit in almost all individuals by 6 months. In contrast, booster vaccination induced antigen-specific memory B and T cells that persisted for at least 6 months.

The durability of serum antibody responses improves only marginally following booster immunizations with the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna mRNA vaccines.

Durability of immune responses to mRNA booster vaccination against COVID-19 - PMC

Maintaining durable immunity following vaccination represents a major challenge, but whether mRNA booster vaccination improves durability is unknown. We measured antibody responses in 55 healthy adults, who received a booster dose of the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

does that apply to all vaccines or just mRNA vaccines?

So your cutting and pasting about the pharmacokinetics just confirmed what I posted about that side effects emerge within the first few months and that new long term side effects can’t occur. Thanks for that.

And you totally missed my point that myocarditis in the 0.00000057% incidence was mild because it did reverse and reversal is possible both naturally and medically.

What is your argument anyway? Are you saying that myocarditis will miraculously occur in the long term when there is no vaccine serum in the body?

Are you saying that vaccines have a strong safety signal for myocarditis because of the 0.00000057 incidence?

Are you saying we shouldn’t take vaccines because around fifty people developed myocarditis in the 99 million doses given in that study you initially linked?

It’s all very confusing. Any coherant logic and strength of argument is lost in a sea of cut and paste and fruitless counter arguments.

 

[Spacks]

So your cutting and pasting about the pharmacokinetics just confirmed what I posted about that side effects emerge within the first few months and that new long term side effects can’t occur. Thanks for that.

And you totally missed my point that myocarditis in the 0.00000057% incidence was mild because it did reverse and reversal is possible both naturally and medically.

What is your argument anyway? Are you saying that myocarditis will miraculously occur in the long term when there is no vaccine serum in the body?

Are you saying that vaccines have a strong safety signal for myocarditis because of the 0.00000057 incidence?

Are you saying we shouldn’t take vaccines because around fifty people developed myocarditis in the 99 million doses given in that study you initially linked?

It’s all very confusing. Any coherant logic and strength of argument is lost in a sea of cut and paste and fruitless counter arguments.

Kinda strange it's taken this long for you to actually ask me what my argument is.
Also, could you specify where exactly you got this 0.00000057% number from?

My argument was that mandating vaccines for a virus that had a 0.09% CMR for under 65s was stupid, especially considering that the covid vaccines chances of causing myocarditis was increased in young men significantly.

 

[marinermick]

Kinda strange it's taken this long for you to actually ask me what my argument is.
Also, could you specify where exactly you got this 0.00000057% number from?

My argument was that mandating vaccines for a virus that had a 0.09% CMR for under 65s was stupid, especially considering that the covid vaccines chances of causing myocarditis was increased in young men significantly.

That mortality rate was with the inclusion of vaccines. What would have been the death rate without them? We sought of know that if we we know there is a twelve times, so by logic that is around one percent.

Are you advocating that we wipe one percent of our population when we have a means of preventing that?

And I am not even going into the economic and resource implications on our health system through a higher community disease burden.

Herd immunity principles means we can’t vaccinate a portion of our population. It’s all in (or at least 80%) or none in.

The 0.000000057% came from the study you originally posted.

 

[Stuartmcateer]

Are you advocating that we wipe one percent of our population when we have a means of preventing that?

Not advocating, but open to it depending on which 1% 🤔

 

[Spacks]

That mortality rate was with the inclusion of vaccines. What would have been the death rate without them? We sought of know that if we we know there is a twelve times, so by logic that is around one percent.

The 0.000000057% came from the study you originally posted.

Can you show me where you come to the conclusion that mortality rate was with the inclusion of the vaccines?

and which study, I've posted a few mate

thanks

 

[Spacks]

Not advocating, but open to it depending on which 1% 🤔

he pulled that 1% claim out of his arse, bro

 

[booney]

So you didn't have the vaccine which is fair enough if you didn't work in the health industry( as in seeing patients) or as a first responder.You are concerned about myocarditis and the possibility that if you developed this condition you might be left with myocardial fibrosis.Myocarditis is a recognised though infrequent side effect of the mRNA vaccines as is pericarditis.Myocardial fibrosis ( scarring of the cardiac muscle) can occur following myocarditis but as figures quoted by others have shown it is rare.

If in years to come you suffer a myocardial infarction or develop an arrhythmia your chances of developing myocardial fibrosis are much higher than if you had had the vaccine.It has been pointed out that there are many other causes of myocarditis and indeed Covid itself can cause myocarditis( and pericarditis) in a much higher incidence than the vaccine.

The pandemic certainly spooked governments and health authorities around the world and the restriction of movement and other precautions such as mask wearing may have appeared OTT but when confronted with a severe health crisis strong measures are required and restrictions had to be applied. The development of the vaccines was a triumph of scientific expertise and before their availability death rates in a lot of countries were unacceptable.Australia,being an island ,was able to restrict movement and thus our death rate was relatively low.You feel justified in your own mind that you didn't have the vaccine but does that make you a good member of society?If you had developed Covid and then passed it onto family and friends and some of them had died or suffered from long Covid would you have felt as you do now about the vaccine.Maybe you were lucky that you didn't get the infection or if you did it was mild.Anyway enjoy your life and following the Mariners.

 

[marinermick]

he pulled that 1% claim out of his arse, bro

The twelve time more likely to die from Covid had already been linked but I suspect you didn’t bother to read that. If the mortality rate was 0.09 as you stated then a free for all without vaccines would increase that rate to one percent.

That’s an extra three hundred thousand dead Australians

 

[Spacks]

The twelve time more likely to die from Covid had already been linked but I suspect you didn’t bother to read that. If the mortality rate was 0.09 as you stated then a free for all without vaccines would increase that rate to one percent.

That’s an extra three hundred thousand dead Australians

forgot all about it

Edit: honestly I hope you are right and that the vaccines are safe and effective and that the vaccines actually did what the pharmaceutical companies say they do but I just don't trust the government or the companies that get paid to make them. Especially when some of those companies have been fined billions of dollars in the past (J&J, Pfizer).

Either way, I'm happy with my decision and you seem happy with yours

 

[Big Al]

So you didn't have the vaccine which is fair enough if you didn't work in the health industry( as in seeing patients) or as a first responder.You are concerned about myocarditis and the possibility that if you developed this condition you might be left with myocardial fibrosis.Myocarditis is a recognised though infrequent side effect of the mRNA vaccines as is pericarditis.Myocardial fibrosis ( scarring of the cardiac muscle) can occur following myocarditis but as figures quoted by others have shown it is rare.

If in years to come you suffer a myocardial infarction or develop an arrhythmia your chances of developing myocardial fibrosis are much higher than if you had had the vaccine.It has been pointed out that there are many other causes of myocarditis and indeed Covid itself can cause myocarditis( and pericarditis) in a much higher incidence than the vaccine.

The pandemic certainly spooked governments and health authorities around the world and the restriction of movement and other precautions such as mask wearing may have appeared OTT but when confronted with a severe health crisis strong measures are required and restrictions had to be applied. The development of the vaccines was a triumph of scientific expertise and before their availability death rates in a lot of countries were unacceptable.Australia,being an island ,was able to restrict movement and thus our death rate was relatively low.You feel justified in your own mind that you didn't have the vaccine but does that make you a good member of society?If you had developed Covid and then passed it onto family and friends and some of them had died or suffered from long Covid would you have felt as you do now about the vaccine.Maybe you were lucky that you didn't get the infection or if you did it was mild.Anyway enjoy your life and following the Mariners.

Well said. There was a lot of misinformation and mistakes made by governments where common sense went out the window. I think that is what lost a few. At the end of the day it wasn’t planned and they had to make decisions on the run. I don’t agree with some but as a country our death rate was pretty low (i am assuming not facts but that is how it feels).

The vaccines were rushed but out of necessity. Suddenly medical rules for experimental drugs were thrown out the window but maybe that was a good thing and maybe they can continue a quicker human trial on some drugs especially cancer for those in desperate need who are prepared to take risks.

Was it perfect no, but i think they tried there best. I just don’t believe in the making of people to take the vaccine. A lot of people were pressured to
Keep there jobs. That was wrong in my opinion but i understand why

Overall was the isolation worse than the disease? I think so for a lot of young kids but their teachers were older and needed protection.

I don’t understand why people are still arguing about it this long after but each to their own.

Most importantly i have the highest respect for our medical practioners and nurses. I trust them 1000 times more than governments of any side

 

[pjennings]

As the father and father-in-law to two ICU nurses I an very grateful for the vaccines. My daughter-in-law started her grad year placement in RNS ICU in March 2020 (days before the Ruby Princess). The next year before the vaccine was available as she cared for Covid cases was stressful for all the family.