The FINALS thread

[marinermick]

Congrats to the WAA5CN Tuggerah girls winning their grandfinal on the weekend. Gosford did not look like they wanted it.

Can't even win with some dignity and had to have a dig at Gosford.

Congrats to Tuggerah. Best team all year and deserved both trophies.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Unde14's girls final between Gosford and Kariong (i think it was?) that was on before the AA5 womens game on field 3 had an interesting outcome

0-0 after extra time, so went to penaltys

one of the Kariongs girls took 2 kicks, without every player in the team having taken their turn. apparantley the ref allowed this to happen (this is what we heard)

kariong wins the shootout, and gosford immediatly protest (and rightly so imo)

anyone got anymore info?

Yes, total fiasco. Heres the full story.

After first 5 shots even  - so go to sudden death...

For the very next - 6th pen - #7 - the girl who took Kariong's first pen I think it was goes up again... myself and others were calling to the ref from the sideline while she was still only walking up that she had already shot - if only.... it would have saved an immense amount of grief if he had adhered to the rules... but while I don't know what was said, the Ref just allows her to walk up and take it...

Kariong player converts... Gosford coach, actually knowing rules, doesn't send up gun player or any of first 5, and this girl misses... Ref blows whistle - Kariong girls start going nuts that they think they have won... Gosford coach runs onto the pitch to speak to the ref and is brushed aside by him...

Flagrant breach of the world wide laws of the game. Gosford must protest - anything less by the coach would be nothing less than negligent. But it's a horrible position for both teams and now becomes a lose lose for all involved.

Whether a 6th player as should have occured had taken the pen for kariong and made the pen... you cannot say. Whether or not Gosfords gun girl if allowed to take a second shot - which she of course shouldn't be - would have made her pen and then its level again you simply cannot say either... she may have missed too... or Gosford may have levelled and gone onto win it... you just can't say unless you think your nostradamus...

So Gosford put in a protest - Kariong as said and as you would imagine are going nuts, you understand how horrible and hard it is... but if you also know the rules, then you also know that no amount of yelling about injustice and winning it fair and sqaure because the ref said is going to make any difference at all... because the referee was in direct breach of the rules of the game, and his error was concerning nothing less than the deciding penalty shot in a grand final penalty shoot out.

The referee did both teams an immense disservice - and the blame lies soley upon his shoulders. It was his error, not Kariongs and nor Gosfords.

Unfortunately many at Kariong were then accusing GCFC's young coach, whose a really decent young guy, and the GCFC club of poor sportsmanship and lacking in ethics etc. While I most sincerely commiserate with the completely unfair emotional pain all at Kariong had to go through as their girls had played a great game, then thinking they had won it and having it taken away is just something that should NOT have happened. But this was through absolutely no fault of the Gosford coach or players and they deserve no condemnation or judgement on their character for such.

The Gosford coach did nothing wrong, at all, in fact in truth, of all concerned he was the only one who actually did what was correct - The referee did not - and I am unsure of why the Kariong coach allowed his player to take a second shot?? I can only conclude that he did not know this would be in direct breach to the rules of the game and that such a decision is not at a referees discretion no matter how much you may like it to be. To then say that objecting to this is poor sportsmanship is untrue at the very least and certainly contributed to the outrage of Kariong supporters and their feelings of being ripped off come blame/hatred of Gosford.

The game is now set to be replayed Thursday night.

Unfortunately some Kariong parents were afterwards in their ire talking of how they wouldn't play it... and if they did how dirty the game would be if they were forced too... You hope this is just the emotion of the day and that this will pass... Though human experience makes you fear otherwise...

Its terrible for these girls now, because no matter what happens...
Kariong wins... its going to be... "There you cheating bastards that serves you right!"
But worse if kariong loses... I wouldn't even rule out violence form the level of emotion I have already seen displayed and trust CCF will have security closely monitoring the match.

It's terrible, these are just a bunch of 14 year old girls - and I know half of the young Gosford girls were actually stunned, saying if everyones going to get so upset, just let them have it... Not a bunch of girls who deserve to get lumps kicked out of them and then called cheats if they win.

But this still wouldn't be right... the winner of the game was not found within the rules of the game... But for mine, after 100 odd mins of football, and 5 pens and both sides are still even... the idea any one side is really the better team is just absurd anyway. Award a joint premiership and be done with it to protect the girls from the vitriol and hostile environment they will likely receive on Thursday night as a result of one referees's ignorance and pride I say. But rematch it is.

Also for what its worth...
CCF handled the matter with professionalism and remained calm in the face of serious emotion and should be applauded for it - though I am concerned for the well being of the girls from both teams in the rematch.

 

[marinermick]

The only sensible decision IMO is to award both teams joint champions.

It will the indignity of having to replay the game which will be devastating on the losing team. I watched the game and there was a struck match between the two teams.

Everyone then wins in what was a diabolical situation.

 

[grendel]

Hey Capt....reffing question for you.
When a keeper deliberately handles the ball outside of the box...isn;t it a straight red??
Rams keeper did this but chump of a ref gave him a yellow not a red.

I;ve played in games when keepers have been sent for this why didn;t it happen in our final?

Only a red if, by handling the ball outside the box, he has prevented a goal from a ball heading straight into goal, or he has denied an attacking player a goal - and only then if the attacking player was within a reasonable playing distance of the ball, was heading in the direction of goal and had insufficient other defenders around to stop him (ie.  'last man').  Unless all of these apply, yellow card or no card.

Hey, just maybe, you're the chump....have you thought of that??

 

[Bladesman]

It sounds like a real mess and you have to wonder about the standard of refereeing on the coast. 

We were involved in 2 Champions of Champions games and I have to say the standard of refereeing at the 2 associations we played at was outstanding and made the standard I saw in the finals games on the coast look very poor.  From what I was told the referees and linesmen were just the top performing ones from the host associations at the relevant age groups which I would assume our finals officials would be.

 

[hasbeen]

The third official (ie not the 2 involved in the supervision of the actual shootout) takes the numbers of the first 5 penalty takers for each team. Then after these it is his/her responsibility to note & ensure the subsequent players have not already taken one until the full eleven on each side have taken a penalty. In this situation the Asst. ref (third official) is to blame.

 

[jiggles]

That girl was tiny, but she had a good boot.

Congrats to the WAA5CN Tuggerah girls winning their grandfinal on the weekend. Gosford did not look like they wanted it.

Can't even win with some dignity and had to have a dig at Gosford.

+1

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Hey Capt....reffing question for you.
When a keeper deliberately handles the ball outside of the box...isn;t it a straight red??
Rams keeper did this but chump of a ref gave him a yellow not a red.

I;ve played in games when keepers have been sent for this why didn;t it happen in our final?

Outside the box, the keeper is just like any other player.  It isn't necessarily a card when ANY player deliberately handles the ball, and that includes the keeper.  A lot of people seem to think it's an automatic red card, but this is a myth.

Where I think this comes from is that when the keeper deliberately handles the ball outside of his area, there is often a fair chance that he has denied an obvious goalscoring opportunity by doing so.  In order to have an obvious goalscoring opportunity, the attacking team would either have possession or running onto a ball that's easy to control (say, running onto a through ball), generally have no more than 2 defenders (including the one committing the foul - this includes the keeper) directly between him and the goal (or at least, in a position to block a shot - say, sprinting over to goal), and be heading directly towards goal.  That's DOGSO in a nutshell, but like all things it's a bit more involved.  DOGSO is the only reason the keeper should get  red card for deliberate hanlind outside the area.  So, if it blocks a shot on goal or stops an attacker taking/keeping possession when there's nobody behind him, there's a good chance it's a red.

If there's no obvious goal-scoring opportunity - say, the attacker is angling away from goal, or possession is doubtful, or any of a few other reasons, then the ref can caution the keeper, or not even show a card.

Btw that ref should be penalised for stuffing up like that, also the side line ref too for not speaking up when the Gosford coach said something to him.

Fair call, but how would you go about penalising them?  I know when I was involved with CCFRI, if somebody stuffed up a finals match it was informally held against them....ie they'd bloody well want to prove themselves during the next season if they want to get anything decent.

They should be approached by the refereeing director for the purpose of educating them - what, if anything, should happen beyond that - and what it would achieve - is debatable.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

It sounds like a real mess and you have to wonder about the standard of refereeing on the coast. 

We were involved in 2 Champions of Champions games and I have to say the standard of refereeing at the 2 associations we played at was outstanding and made the standard I saw in the finals games on the coast look very poor.  From what I was told the referees and linesmen were just the top performing ones from the host associations at the relevant age groups which I would assume our finals officials would be.

First and foremost, the finals officials are chosen on eligibility criteria.  If you've been to X amount of meetings, and done the fitness test/seminar, then IIRC that renders you eligible for grand finals.  Usually there aren't too many members eligible....something like half the members for the number of grand finals (rough guess), so basically if you're eligible, then you get a grand final - as long as they fulfil the criteria then that's their right.  After that, it comes down to a ranking system - some of the officials will be ranked by the committee based on their inspection reports and this determines the higher senior grades.  For juniors, these guys usually don't get ranked so it's a lot more informal, based quite a bit on word-of-mouth reports.  Naturally, the better refs get the better games.  Then of course you have other factors which affect that, such as availability, team/club affiliations and, at times, favouritism by those doing the appointments.

Without meaning to put the 14 girls down, I'm sure anybody would agree that it isn't exactly the highest grade around.

Now, is it fair that every referee who is eligible gets a grand final?  Or should competence come first?  Even if it does, there's nothing stopping a very competent referee screwing up on the day - particularly if it's applying laws they're not used to, such as a penalty shootout.

Almost certainly, the ones we send to champions of champions are the top of our bunch too and probably quite comparable to the champions of champions referees you saw - however, even in those associations their finals may have shown a much greater spread of refereeing ability.  Also some areas - particularly sydney-based competition - produce better referees because there are more high-standard competitions (such as the various state leagues) based in these areas.  That's simply the reality we face on the coast.

I think Gosford had no choice in the matter - I believe they absolutely did the right thing by protesting, but as Forum Phoenix said, everybody loses out now.

I do think part of the blame MUST rest on the Kariong coach's shoulders - coaches should also take it upon themselves to learn the laws of the game as well.  But yes, the officials should shoulder the majority of blame.  Pity, and now a single referee stuff-up is really all that these players and parents are going to remember from this entire season.

The third official (ie not the 2 involved in the supervision of the actual shootout) takes the numbers of the first 5 penalty takers for each team. Then after these it is his/her responsibility to note & ensure the subsequent players have not already taken one until the full eleven on each side have taken a penalty. In this situation the Asst. ref (third official) is to blame.

It may well be that only the AR in the circle was the one writing down the numbers and he mucked up his note-taking.  Realistically the ref should also note the numbers, but I admit that I've been lazy on this too - particularly if I know I can trust the AR.  If the player said to the ref that she's already kicked, the ref should've taken a moment to check with the AR - or if the other AR at the goalmouth heard it, he should've said something to the referee.

 

[Alicia]

Congrats to Tuggerah WAA5 for winning the grand final.  As for Gosford not wanting it, that's just bullshit.  Best team on the day won, and congrats to you.

Also massive thanks to everyone who come to watch the gosford girls play.  I know they really appreciated the support

 

[jiggles]

Video is iminent You need to email me that song.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

The third official (ie not the 2 involved in the supervision of the actual shootout) takes the numbers of the first 5 penalty takers for each team. Then after these it is his/her responsibility to note & ensure the subsequent players have not already taken one until the full eleven on each side have taken a penalty. In this situation the Asst. ref (third official) is to blame.

Yes thats true in that circumstance perhaps (Though for mine Gus's point on Ref being aware of numbers should still apply I believe too) However you have missed a major point - being the ref (besides our calling out) from all reports by Kariong was well aware that the girl was taking her second shot.

So the third official has no further job to dispense - except to challenge the ref - which he should have done - especially as GCFC coach was in his ear on the matter - but he either didn't know the rule intimately either, which as cap'n Gus pointed out - you won't get the highest levels of refs on these games. Also to be fair, its not easy for any third official to take on a ref... But a young (as he was) third official in such a high stakes moment is even harder.

The Ref made a call. A call that was in direct breach of the laws of the game. Everyone suffers.

I agree with Mick.

Joint Premiership most sensible answer.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

It sounds like a real mess and you have to wonder about the standard of refereeing on the coast. 

I do think part of the blame MUST rest on the Kariong coach's shoulders - coaches should also take it upon themselves to learn the laws of the game as well. 

I do think this is true. There's not much denying it. For mine I would never have let my player take a second shot.

To be fair however, I've wondered whether he may well have known the rules, but then assumed that if the ref was allowing it, surely the ref knew better than him - which would be a reasonably fair assumption. Though a very incorrect one in this matter. 

Also as you pointed out re - not highest levels of referees on girls 14s matches...
The same stands true for coaches... Generally you will not find such a division being coached by the most experienced coaches either... though as such instances as this tragically highlight, you need to learn your rules.

 

[hasbeen]

The third official (ie not the 2 involved in the supervision of the actual shootout) takes the numbers of the first 5 penalty takers for each team. Then after these it is his/her responsibility to note & ensure the subsequent players have not already taken one until the full eleven on each side have taken a penalty. In this situation the Asst. ref (third official) is to blame.

Yes thats true in that circumstance perhaps (Though for mine Gus's point on Ref being aware of numbers should still apply I believe too) However you have missed a major point - being the ref (besides our calling out) from all reports by Kariong was well aware that the girl was taking her second shot.

So the third official has no further job to dispense - except to challenge the ref - which he should have done - especially as GCFC coach was in his ear on the matter - but he either didn't know the rule intimately either, which as cap'n Gus pointed out - you won't get the highest levels of refs on these games. Also to be fair, its not easy for any third official to take on a ref... But a young (as he was) third official in such a high stakes moment is even harder.

The Ref made a call. A call that was in direct breach of the laws of the game. Everyone suffers.

I agree with Mick.

Joint Premiership most sensible answer.

The third official is in the centre circle with the players. The player walks away from that circle to the goalmouth. The third official can see the number of the player walking to the penalty spot, and notices it is already one of those taken in the original 5, and calls the player back. Simple. As to why it got further than that, well, as you say, the officials are usually quite inexperienced, and maybe shouldn't have been doing a GF.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

The problem is not about being aware of it... the problem is that the ref knew and thought it was still within his power to ok it. Re not doing a GF, can't argue with taht after this can you.

 

[Bear]

did anyone see the refs assistant in the AA2 (i think it was) gf before eggys game on the main field?

he was a kid. and when i say kid, he could not have been older than 14.

i dont care how qualified he is, the guy was 3 foot tall, and waaaaaaaaaayyyyy to young to be running the line in a gf imo

 

[Kanwal Bull]

did anyone see the refs assistant in the AA2 (i think it was) gf before eggys game on the main field?

he was a kid. and when i say kid, he could not have been older than 14.

i dont care how qualified he is, the guy was 3 foot tall, and waaaaaaaaaayyyyy to young to be running the line in a gf imo

I know the guy your talking about.. he has done Kanwal premier league games before..

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

He's been around for a few years.  Certainly old enough to run a line.

Though as long as he's up to the task I don't really see how age - or appearance of age - is relevant anyway.

Some 14/15 year olds would be more capable and more confident than some of the 18-20yr olds around.

 

[jiggles]

The guy doing the WAA5 games even looked pretty young.... Maybe they are running short on older refs?

 

[kanewillow]

wats age got to do with anything if ya good enough your old enough