The end is nigh - impending doom - Moss out etc thread

[pjennings]

We played 4-3-3 in the first half. Switch to 4-2-3-1 at half time when Monty swapped for Tricky. We then shipped another easy goal and we then brought on Major and switched to 4-4-2 full on counter attacking. Was great to watch.

Thats how I saw it anyway.

I saw it as 4-2-3-1 until Major came on,

 

[midfielder]

I can't recall us ever having played so poorly ...

Despite what some posters have posted I tho Caceras was close to our best before he came off ...

Player signings to date are poor ...Sim, Tricky and Fitzy really Monty OK ..

What else is there to say ...

 

[Forum Phoenix]

They play short triangle passes going backwards and sideways with no one moving into space forcing them to hoof it long before too long....pointless football.

It isn't "no one" moving into space. It's that our movement off the ball is not consistent - and is made worse when we play a lone striker, do not have two genuine wingers on, and our 10 is easily closed out of games... so most often we are forced back. but we do actually play triangles going forward as well, but they rarely amount to much forward momentum and are soon forced sideways and backwards because we should already have broken 30 seconds ago and our opponents have their whole team behind the ball - or are pressing us so hard in our own half that we panic (lack of quality) and miss hit or hoof. Bottom line, we're slow to transition, so we're easily shut down and our 10 does not present or find space anywhere near well enough.

GRA, We have played well a couple of times, and City was our best performance, but if you watch that game again it's easy to see why. The only time we look great are against teams that don't apply a strong or effective press, and thereby don't expose our lack of quality. It takes another level to play a possession based game when the speed and pressure is upped and that is when we are consistently being shown to lack in some essential quality - whether it is playing out from the back and our CB's are ponderous (perfectly put BG) make stupid back passes, hospital passes forward and aimless long balls (that make you really pine for the brilliance of Dutchy) or a class ten who can consistently play killer balls to punish sides or hold even possession in a malestrom (or draw a foul) to Bernie like wingers who break with speed, skill and conviction (Fitz is decent - but he cannot finish and his final ball still leaves a lot to be desired.

I like possession based football. I think Mossy has done a passable job of this but it must be effective, and we lack the quality to be effective I believe, so I'll try and be clear why;

Zac at the back is a problem. He's a solid defender, but lacks agility and speed of both body and thought... his short passing is slow and average, his mid range is good on the ground, his long range is poor. Mossy needs to bring Posco in to CB. Bosnar has been more consistent than Zac, but he is still not a brilliant CB for a side trying to play the football that we are trying to.

Then we have to sort out our ten. It is very rare that anyside is successful without a firing number ten. That's two key positions in our spine that are simply not good enough. Trifiro was absent Saturday when there was simply no excuse for being so. Who genuinely thinks that any other team in the league would take him as their first choice ten? Would the even have Sim in their squad? He was starting at ten over Trif when Monty was first injured and Caceres played in for him. Trif and Sim...? Compared to a lineage of Tommy P, Musty, Rogic, Perez, Flores...???

Caceres work rate for a DM is not high enough either - making it three clear issues in 3 key positions against SFC. Rosey's poor first half of passing (and shocking reading on that first goal header) and Gillette's incompetence didn't help much either. (Looks like Arnie's whinge and his fine was well worth it -- worked well for Sir Alex for many years) I do strongly question some of the selections, signings and football we've been playing also, but no matter what anyone says, those things were not Moss's fault directly on Saturday.

So I'm not trying to be a Moss apologist, but I do think people are missing what seems very clear about our squad, unless they seriously believe that Trif, Sim, Vernes and Cernak, are equal replacements for players like Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile.

If GA had our current squad and did not have, Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy, Trent, Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile... He does not win us a title. I've left out Danny, because while he was immense for us, and even dropped in to play ten at times. In Matty Simon and Dukey and now Major I do feel we are ok in this regard. Pedj for Roux was a good trade.

I'd like to feel differently. Not one for riding players. But our squad is not up to scratch and we have spent almost nothing in January even though we were clearly floundering, talking up signings, and have released Kim and Mane. It's not good enough. Take those January Senegalese signings out of SFC and they would have been a different side too. They have Smeltz on the bench FFS. Give us Bernie and they can have their pick of Sim, Vernes or Cernak and we'll see how they fare. So while Mossy may not be great. He actually did do a pretty great job last year when our squad was more solid, so I don't want to see him hung out to dry if it's because he's not getting the $$ he sorely needs to get some desperately needed extra quality on to the pitch.

The flip side is that he may be happy with his squad, that the recruiting has been controlled by him, and like those worrying pressers sees no problem with just bad luck and individual errors and lapses in concentration... if that's the case then yeah... I agree, he has to go. But no philosophy works without the players who can execute it.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

I'm not getting into the MossIn/MossOut argument. However, their first 4 goals came from incredibly shoddy defence.

1) Posco is a CB - not a RB - second goal
2) Ando is not a CB - he is a male model - third and 4th goal
3) Rose misjudged the cross terribly - first goal

Thankfully the Smurfs missed a few sitters - particularly in the first half.

Why did we play 4-2-3-1 yesterday when last out when we created a lot more we played 4-4-2.

Why did our biggest creative threats from last game, Cernak and Vernes not make the squad or simply sit on the bench?

Exactly this.

 

[Einstein]

It isn't "no one" moving into space. It's that our movement off the ball is not consistent - and is made worse when we play a lone striker, do not have two genuine wingers on, and our 10 is easily closed out of games... so most often we are forced back. but we do actually play triangles going forward as well, but they rarely amount to much forward momentum and are soon forced sideways and backwards because we should already have broken 30 seconds ago and our opponents have their whole team behind the ball - or are pressing us so hard in our own half that we panic (lack of quality) and miss hit or hoof. Bottom line, we're slow to transition, so we're easily shut down and our 10 does not present or find space anywhere near well enough.

GRA, We have played well a couple of times, and City was our best performance, but if you watch that game again it's easy to see why. The only time we look great are against teams that don't apply a strong or effective press, and thereby don't expose our lack of quality. It takes another level to play a possession based game when the speed and pressure is upped and that is when we are consistently being shown to lack in some essential quality - whether it is playing out from the back and our CB's are ponderous (perfectly put BG) make stupid back passes, hospital passes forward and aimless long balls (that make you really pine for the brilliance of Dutchy) or a class ten who can consistently play killer balls to punish sides or hold even possession in a malestrom (or draw a foul) to Bernie like wingers who break with speed, skill and conviction (Fitz is decent - but he cannot finish and his final ball still leaves a lot to be desired.

I like possession based football. I think Mossy has done a passable job of this but it must be effective, and we lack the quality to be effective I believe, so I'll try and be clear why;

Zac at the back is a problem. He's a solid defender, but lacks agility and speed of both body and thought... his short passing is slow and average, his mid range is good on the ground, his long range is poor. Mossy needs to bring Posco in to CB. Bosnar has been more consistent than Zac, but he is still not a brilliant CB for a side trying to play the football that we are trying to.

Then we have to sort out our ten. It is very rare that anyside is successful without a firing number ten. That's two key positions in our spine that are simply not good enough. Trifiro was absent Saturday when there was simply no excuse for being so. Who genuinely thinks that any other team in the league would take him as their first choice ten? Would the even have Sim in their squad? He was starting at ten over Trif when Monty was first injured and Caceres played in for him. Trif and Sim...? Compared to a lineage of Tommy P, Musty, Rogic, Perez, Flores...???

Caceres work rate for a DM is not high enough either - making it three clear issues in 3 key positions against SFC. Rosey's poor first half of passing (and shocking reading on that first goal header) and Gillette's incompetence didn't help much either. (Looks like Arnie's whinge and his fine was well worth it -- worked well for Sir Alex for many years) I do strongly question some of the selections, signings and football we've been playing also, but no matter what anyone says, those things were not Moss's fault directly on Saturday.

So I'm not trying to be a Moss apologist, but I do think people are missing what seems very clear about our squad, unless they seriously believe that Trif, Sim, Vernes and Cernak, are equal replacements for players like Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile.

If GA had our current squad and did not have, Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy, Trent, Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile... He does not win us a title. I've left out Danny, because while he was immense for us, and even dropped in to play ten at times. In Matty Simon and Dukey and now Major I do feel we are ok in this regard. Pedj for Roux was a good trade.

I'd like to feel differently. Not one for riding players. But our squad is not up to scratch and we have spent almost nothing in January even though we were clearly floundering, talking up signings, and have released Kim and Mane. It's not good enough. Take those January Senegalese signings out of SFC and they would have been a different side too. They have Smeltz on the bench FFS. Give us Bernie and they can have their pick of Sim, Vernes or Cernak and we'll see how they fare. So while Mossy may not be great. He actually did do a pretty great job last year when our squad was more solid, so I don't want to see him hung out to dry if it's because he's not getting the $$ he sorely needs to get some desperately needed extra quality on to the pitch.

The flip side is that he may be happy with his squad, that the recruiting has been controlled by him, and like those worrying pressers sees no problem with just bad luck and individual errors and lapses in concentration... if that's the case then yeah... I agree, he has to go. But no philosophy works without the players who can execute it.

Adjust the philosophy to suit the cattle.

 

[go you yellow]

Why did our biggest creative threats from last game, Cernak and Vernes not make the squad or simply sit on the bench?

This is what I find most puzzling.

Sure Sydney played a very effective pressing game on our average possession playing capability , but surely when Cernak and Vernes seemed to find themselves in space and able to set up Dukey in the final third you would revert to our previously unsuccessful formation.

I don't get it.

 

[nearlyyellow]

Oh, we didn't know this was your POV before this posting?

At least I know what your POV is.

Do you want to keep him and if so why?......and answering because he has a nice tan is not a proper answer.

You should research if you don't know my POV. Here is what I said.

Going by what MC said here:
http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/article/2014/11/25/moss-gets-mariners-owners-backing
Moss is going to get at least that much, and more. And imho so he should! It's a 3 year plan, isn't it? 1st. year to get personnel right and understanding between personnel. 2nd year to get team tactics and tactics vs. oppo. teams right. 3rd. year to hit the opposition hard and win!

I won't do this again. If you can't remember my or another's POV why should we research for you?

 

[Gratis]

It isn't "no one" moving into space. It's that our movement off the ball is not consistent - and is made worse when we play a lone striker, do not have two genuine wingers on, and our 10 is easily closed out of games... so most often we are forced back. but we do actually play triangles going forward as well, but they rarely amount to much forward momentum and are soon forced sideways and backwards because we should already have broken 30 seconds ago and our opponents have their whole team behind the ball - or are pressing us so hard in our own half that we panic (lack of quality) and miss hit or hoof. Bottom line, we're slow to transition, so we're easily shut down and our 10 does not present or find space anywhere near well enough.

GRA, We have played well a couple of times, and City was our best performance, but if you watch that game again it's easy to see why. The only time we look great are against teams that don't apply a strong or effective press, and thereby don't expose our lack of quality. It takes another level to play a possession based game when the speed and pressure is upped and that is when we are consistently being shown to lack in some essential quality - whether it is playing out from the back and our CB's are ponderous (perfectly put BG) make stupid back passes, hospital passes forward and aimless long balls (that make you really pine for the brilliance of Dutchy) or a class ten who can consistently play killer balls to punish sides or hold even possession in a malestrom (or draw a foul) to Bernie like wingers who break with speed, skill and conviction (Fitz is decent - but he cannot finish and his final ball still leaves a lot to be desired.

I like possession based football. I think Mossy has done a passable job of this but it must be effective, and we lack the quality to be effective I believe, so I'll try and be clear why;

Zac at the back is a problem. He's a solid defender, but lacks agility and speed of both body and thought... his short passing is slow and average, his mid range is good on the ground, his long range is poor. Mossy needs to bring Posco in to CB. Bosnar has been more consistent than Zac, but he is still not a brilliant CB for a side trying to play the football that we are trying to.

Then we have to sort out our ten. It is very rare that anyside is successful without a firing number ten. That's two key positions in our spine that are simply not good enough. Trifiro was absent Saturday when there was simply no excuse for being so. Who genuinely thinks that any other team in the league would take him as their first choice ten? Would the even have Sim in their squad? He was starting at ten over Trif when Monty was first injured and Caceres played in for him. Trif and Sim...? Compared to a lineage of Tommy P, Musty, Rogic, Perez, Flores...???

Caceres work rate for a DM is not high enough either - making it three clear issues in 3 key positions against SFC. Rosey's poor first half of passing (and shocking reading on that first goal header) and Gillette's incompetence didn't help much either. (Looks like Arnie's whinge and his fine was well worth it -- worked well for Sir Alex for many years) I do strongly question some of the selections, signings and football we've been playing also, but no matter what anyone says, those things were not Moss's fault directly on Saturday.

So I'm not trying to be a Moss apologist, but I do think people are missing what seems very clear about our squad, unless they seriously believe that Trif, Sim, Vernes and Cernak, are equal replacements for players like Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile.

If GA had our current squad and did not have, Weemac, Bernie, Ollie, Dutchy, Trent, Tommy/Musti/Perez, Mile... He does not win us a title. I've left out Danny, because while he was immense for us, and even dropped in to play ten at times. In Matty Simon and Dukey and now Major I do feel we are ok in this regard. Pedj for Roux was a good trade.

I'd like to feel differently. Not one for riding players. But our squad is not up to scratch and we have spent almost nothing in January even though we were clearly floundering, talking up signings, and have released Kim and Mane. It's not good enough. Take those January Senegalese signings out of SFC and they would have been a different side too. They have Smeltz on the bench FFS. Give us Bernie and they can have their pick of Sim, Vernes or Cernak and we'll see how they fare. So while Mossy may not be great. He actually did do a pretty great job last year when our squad was more solid, so I don't want to see him hung out to dry if it's because he's not getting the $$ he sorely needs to get some desperately needed extra quality on to the pitch.

The flip side is that he may be happy with his squad, that the recruiting has been controlled by him, and like those worrying pressers sees no problem with just bad luck and individual errors and lapses in concentration... if that's the case then yeah... I agree, he has to go. But no philosophy works without the players who can execute it.

I agree with you 100% FP, and in truth I'm not yet in the Moss out camp myself.
But what you are saying is exactly my point. We can all see what's going on is not working. We can only change 2 things - the players to suit the system or the system to suit the players. With no spots left to fill and most players in mid or new contracts we can't change the players, or at least not many for the time being.
We HAVE to change the system. With our current squad we're unlikely to win too much but we could at least be competitive, which is a darn site preferable to what we have been all season with no sign of improvement.

 

[justafan]

I blame the players tonight. That was bad effort and sloppy mistakes.
The game plan might have been wrong but not as wrong as it was played. IMO

I only blame defenders and Mossy.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Adjust the philosophy to suit the cattle.

I think you guys are right, and we need a change strategically, but unfortunately when other teams have stronger squads playing their philosophy you can and will be found wanting.

Mossy did better when our squad was sronger... anyway Ferreria is a great signing and step in the right direction. So we'll see.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

I only blame defenders and Mossy.

Horrible defensive lapses, but Trifiro was first to be dragged and with good reason.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

I agree with you 100% FP, and in truth I'm not yet in the Moss out camp myself.
But what you are saying is exactly my point. We can all see what's going on is not working. We can only change 2 things - the players to suit the system or the system to suit the players. With no spots left to fill and most players in mid or new contracts we can't change the players, or at least not many for the time being.
We HAVE to change the system. With our current squad we're unlikely to win too much but we could at least be competitive, which is a darn site preferable to what we have been all season with no sign of improvement.

I agree GrA, but I think we need to change both. Not advocating a clean out or any such, but to me we needed to bolster with 3-4 spots this season and we hadn't. I tried to be optimistic about Kim, Sim, Trif, Vernes–not completely given up on him - and thought Mane looked good - but regardless of any philosophy, a tipping point of player quality is still required. Most of the other teams are well coached with stronger rosters than us this year. Moss is inexperienced, but with a clear loss of quality in our ranks, I simply don't feel quite as inclined to lump it all at his feet as many others on here do. I don't think it's that simple. (or majorly correcting course mid season for that matter)

Anyway...I'm felling more optimistic, as imho, until we signed Major and another quality winger, playing two up front wasn't really an option unless Cernak finally fulfilled his potential out wide to free Duke. With Ferreria, I think this might change. and I think Matty and Dukey deserve to be upfront together.

However I still think we have an issue with distribution from our CB's that cannot be easily solved. And while I want to be wrong, I'm just not convinced we have a #10 in our team, capable of getting us into top four, (let alone two) but maybe top six...

 

[justafan]

Horrible defensive lapses, but Trifiro was first to be dragged and with good reason.

I've said b4 : Our best option at AM is Cac not Trifiro. Cac did very well when he was played in a more attacking role. For some unknown reason he was dropped back into holding mid where he's got to play with restrictions. He can still play holding due to his quality but not because he feels comfortable doing it. Cac is a clear case of coach inability to develop a player to his full potential. For the youngster's benefit and against my desire, he 's better of if he goes to a club where he'll be given freedom to play what he's capable of .

In regards to our defence, It's not just lapses. The problem is more than that and very obvious : It's average players, playing first grade football. It wasn't a horror just v SFC. It's a horror every game !! Everyone is excited and so am I with FF coming to the mariners, but I think a couple or a quality CB is what is urgently needed. We might improve our chances of scoring with the Portuguese but we'll be still suffering every time the opposition is on the attack if our defensive issues aren't fixed.

Who's to blame ? No doubts : Moss is responsible. He selects system and players.

 

[dibo]

Whatever system we play, we need CBs who do their jobs. Can't blame Moss's choice of system for that.

Can blame him for players we have chosen to sign (and bearing in mind opportunity cost, players that he might have signed and didn't who might have been better suited).

 

[tsd]

I've said b4 : Our best option at AM is Cac not Trifiro. Cac did very well when he was played in a more attacking role. For some unknown reason he was dropped back into holding mid where he's got to play with restrictions. He can still play holding due to his quality but not because he feels comfortable doing it. Cac is a clear case of coach inability to develop a player to his full potential. For the youngster's benefit and against my desire, he 's better of if he goes to a club where he'll be given freedom to play what he's capable of .

not entirely true, in monty's absence we have been playing 433 with both tricky and caceres playing as Ams, hutch DM

 

[dibo]

That's suited us too, I think. I reckon there's merit to playing something like our old diamond too, just to see if we can get the ball movement going a bit more. I'd want to change personnel too, so this is a fairly radical shift:

-------------Reddy--------------
Roux Posco Anderson Rose
---------Hutch/Monty--------
Fer/Fitz----Caceres----Duke
----Major------------Simon---

I think we'd be looser at the back - the AM 3 would have to be *very* disciplined at dropping into the block 4-4-2, and if they can't make it one of the front 2 has to cover. But it might free up options on the quick escape balls that we're terrible at right now, and stop teams from pressing so high because we can hit them on the counter.

Anderson has (I think) a longer future in front of him than Bosnar so I'd prioritise him. He might not be as good a striker of a ball but his decision making isn't as abominable either. Poscoliero brings some ball playing ability to the middle. I'd be *very* tempted if Neill were fit to play him at LB and move Rose to CB with Poscoliero.

Why Major? Why on earth not. Worth a shot.

I'd probably prefer Hutch for the passing game, but if we're transitioning him out then Monty may make more sense and he's going to have to be a Rostyn Griffiths style player making the area in front of the back 4 feel like a minefield for attackers.

Ferreira/Fitzy and Duke would have licence to get forward. We see what Caceres can do, with lots of bodies in motion I think Trifiro may work better there, but we'd see.

 

[Pavman]

I keep hearing talk of unrest in the dressing room and dissatisfied players - is anyone genuinely in the know about this or is it all just rumour?

If it is rumour I don't see a problem other than it's taking a little while to get into sync. It appears Mossy has a plan in mind and it's taking a little while for the team to nail it and get to know each other and each other's roles - but it appears to me to be on track to getting there. I think it has all been compounded by the amount of rotation in pre-season, almost every player got a share of game time meaning no 'starting' 11 really got into sync. The upside is 23 players fit enough to deal with FFA cup, rescheduled games and possible ACL.

Traditionally we start a season slow but manage some points from early games giving us foundation for when we do start to take off. This season looks no different 3 games in. My only concern was a certain lack of fire in the belly against SFC but then we don't concede the fouls we once did either and it appears to be a change in methodology (I hope).

On the other hand if there is genuinely unrest in the squad then we have real troubles. I'm hoping it really is just rumour. If not, well Ange didn't have the backing of or the confidence in his players when he took over Roar and a coaches rejig managed to fix that. My only fear would be a loss of our greatest asset - the Mariners spirit/culture.

If anyone can confirm with knowledge that the unrest is not heresay, i.e. you have first hand knowledge, then please confirm. If you've only heard it from someone please also say. This is the critical point.

Ultimately I think Mossy is working on a playing philosophy that will work when it gets there and just needs time and our patience. I'm a way off calling for anyone's head yet.

Following I have from a ex player(not a starting 11 player, but in the squad for a few years) he is in contact with quite a few players.

Moss lost the dressing room. The players never have had the confidence in moss. Instead of working on the issue it's getting worse.

I can't comment on the rest, but from numerous sources it always shows moss has lost control of the team.

 

[dibo]

It's always easier to blame the boss than look in the mirror.

 

[Pavman]

It's always easier to blame the boss than look in the mirror.

Agree, but for whatever reason he has lost the team, we need changes to make sure it's sorted. If it's players or coach? That's hard to say without being part of it.

 

[Gratis]

this has been my thinking for some time but I just don't believe Mossy would do it

I'd keep Duke up front and one of Simon, Duke or Major on the bench (good impact subs too) and Vernes on the wing