Round 22 - Local Thread

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Haha, that's cruel

Just had a look at the appointments sheet, I'm not familiar with him - so I'm pretty sure he's fairly new, this could even be his first season.

O35s aren't the grade I'd want to be doing in my first season

 

[jiggles]

I hear Tuggerah won against Doylo, so...

Congrats to Tuggerah on being WAA5's Minor Premiers. Just watch out for Gosford in the Semi's

 

[Alicia]

I hear Tuggerah won against Doylo, so...

Congrats to Tuggerah on being WAA5's Minor Premiers. Just watch out for Gosford in the Semi's

Congrats Tuggerah..  You were top of the table most of the comp, so well done!

See you in the semi's

 

[T]

Congrats to Tugg WAA5, they were the team to beat (and we did once ) most of the season ..

See you bright and early next Sun for the Major Semi (even though I can't play ) I will be heard loud and clear from the dugout 

 

[TiredLLegs]

Killarney 14a 3 - Woy Woy 1
Finals bound and against Terrigal next week, tough game but we can do it - bring it on

Couple of nice goals there Northernspirit. The first seemed way offside, though it may have been the flipside for the handball you didnt get given

Good luck.

 

[Jolly_Roger]

Kariong 035B v Umina .  2.2 Draw.

We were pretty ordinary today and turned up thinking that was all we had to do.

We scored a nicely worked goal after 5 mins and immediately switched off allowing Umina into the game.

The ref had a shocker and gave Umina the first of two dodgy penalties. 1.1 at half time.

Second half we dominated early again to get back 2.1 up.  On a rare break a Umina player was shouldered off the ball and the muppet in black gave another hotly contested penalty....2.2.

Umina hardly had a shot apart from the Dot Shots but they were stuborn and we couldn't put them away.

The Ref looked like he was missing a couple of chromozones and certainly refed like it.

Never mind we were crap anyway.

Major Semi v East Gosford next week.

Having played in this game on the opposite team, i think you are being a little harsh on the referee. Both the penalties awarded were correct. A hand ball in the box, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is still a hand ball and a penalty should be awarded. ANd this is what the referee did

The second decision involved a player moving well outside the line of a moving ball to shoulder an opposing player away. He was completetly flattened.This is obstruction, and is again outside the rules of the game. THe referee explained his decision at the time

We played well today considering we were playing with a second string team that was missing four of our ace regulars with no subs, and the midday sun. Unfortunately, not having all our cattle on the paddack at the same time has been our problem this year.
If only we had the luxury of four subs that could be rotated every 10 minutes. Although the breaks your subs provided were welcome reliefs.

I wont apologise for the weekends result stopping you guys from having a chance at winning the minor premiership. But good luck in the semis and we will look forward to continueing the battles next year!

Out of interest, you might recall when we met two weeks ago our keeper had to leave the field with a problem with his hand. Unfortunately, his hand was shattered in the contest and broken in several places. It was operated on mid week and wired up to the hilt. The challenge was fair and just one of those things. i thought you might be intersted

cheers





   

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Having played in this game on the opposite team, i think you are being a little harsh on the referee. Both the penalties awarded were correct. A hand ball in the box, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is still a hand ball and a penalty should be awarded. ANd this is what the referee did

Got a chuckle out of the differing posts here

I would point out that handling the ball is only to be penalised if it's deliberate - doesn't make a difference if it's in the box or not (and that means that if it's accidental, it doesn't matter if that player benefits from it).

I've heard somebody say once before that there's no such thing as an accidental handball in the box....first grade coach nonetheless.  Makes me wonder where some of these bizarre myths come from

Naturally what one person sees as deliberate another may see as accidental...

How long's your keeper out for?

 

[marinermick]

if that is the case gus about the handball, then was porter's handball a penalty? was daal for NQ a handball the week before?

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

mick - porter's handball in which game?  I've worked during the last few matches.

(I'm assuming there's a bigger point to your post....?)

I'm inclined to say Daal was foulled first anyway, but that's just my opinion.

 

[marinermick]

mick - porter's handball in which game?  I've worked during the last few matches.

(I'm assuming there's a bigger point to your post....?)

bradley porter for the mariners against perth friday night

i am getting confused by your posts - in 99.9% of cases players do not deliberately handball yet they are not penalised 99.9% of the time

 

[Jolly_Roger]

Having played in this game on the opposite team, i think you are being a little harsh on the referee. Both the penalties awarded were correct. A hand ball in the box, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, is still a hand ball and a penalty should be awarded. ANd this is what the referee did

Got a chuckle out of the differing posts here

I would point out that handling the ball is only to be penalised if it's deliberate - doesn't make a difference if it's in the box or not (and that means that if it's accidental, it doesn't matter if that player benefits from it).

I've heard somebody say once before that there's no such thing as an accidental handball in the box....first grade coach nonetheless.  Makes me wonder where some of these bizarre myths come from

Naturally what one person sees as deliberate another may see as accidental...

How long's your keeper out for?

Quite right, should of worded that abit better.

How long is he out for.......well its over 35's and he is well beyond that so he could be out for life!!

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

mick - porter's handball in which game?  I've worked during the last few matches.

(I'm assuming there's a bigger point to your post....?)

bradley porter for the mariners against perth friday night

i am getting confused by your posts - in 99.9% of cases players do not deliberately handball yet they are not penalised 99.9% of the time

Well, ok - when I say 'deliberate', are you thinking that it means the player stands there and thinks 'I'm going to get my hands on this ball'?

 

[marinermick]

mick - porter's handball in which game?  I've worked during the last few matches.

(I'm assuming there's a bigger point to your post....?)

bradley porter for the mariners against perth friday night

i am getting confused by your posts - in 99.9% of cases players do not deliberately handball yet they are not penalised 99.9% of the time

Well, ok - when I say 'deliberate', are you thinking that it means the player stands there and thinks 'I'm going to get my hands on this ball'?

yes that is what i mean

i think there is alot of confusion around the word deliberate for the players, spectators and referees

 

[BAD BULLZ]

verhead: x thousands

KANWAL AA1 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS

verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead:

 

[grendel]

Yes...Porter's handball was a handball.  He may not have originally intended to touch the ball with his hands, but in the process of controlling the ball, his arms came down in a deliberate movement and ended up contacting the ball.....hand to ball....!  If it is not deliberate, it doesn't matter whether it's in the penalty area, in front of goal or wherever....there's obviously still a bit of education needed out there if the referees' jobs are going to be any easier.  The sad thing is that people go away with these misconceptions about the rules, arrogantly thinking they are right and the referee is always wrong, and no-one puts them right.  Keep up the good work, C'ptain Gus!

 

[marinermick]

Yes...Porter's handball was a handball.  He may not have originally intended to touch the ball with his hands, but in the process of controlling the ball, his arms came down in a deliberate movement and ended up contacting the ball.....hand to ball....!  If it is not deliberate, it doesn't matter whether it's in the penalty area, in front of goal or wherever....there's obviously still a bit of education needed out there if the referees' jobs are going to be any easier.  The sad thing is that people go away with these misconceptions about the rules, arrogantly thinking they are right and the referee is always wrong, and no-one puts them right.  Keep up the good work, C'ptain Gus!

which exactly highlights my point around the word deliberate

i dare say that there also needs to be more education with referees over this issue because they have varying opinions on what constitutes "deliberate"

if the referees, who are schooled in the rules, cannot get it right, then what makes you think the average punter in the street can?

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

yes that is what i mean

i think there is alot of confusion around the word deliberate for the players, spectators and referees

Fair comment.  I agree with you completely.

A player may 'deliberately' handle the ball, the players will say it was accidental but fair enough, should've been a free kick and the referee will say 'I know you didn't mean it but it was deliberate'.

Come on, who could possibly get confused from that?

Ok, one thing about the laws is that sometimes words carry slightly different meanings to what they'd carry outside.  A few words are used in the laws with a different meaning to what the dictionary definition is.  For instance, at a free kick the ball is in play when it is kicked and moves.  This means the slightest touch that results in movement starts play, but the dictionary definition of 'kick' suggests a fair bit of force is necessary.

I think that 'deliberately handles the ball' could be worded better as 'carelessly handles the ball' - that is, if the player could reasonably have avoided handling the ball he should be penalised for failing to do so (this is just how I'd describe it, it hasn't come from anywhere official)

In the Porter case, I certainly don't think he meant to handle the ball - he simply misjudged the bounce.  However, given the time he had to judge the ball and the position of his arms out to the side, making his body wider, and you could say that it's reasonable to expect him to not have handled the ball in that instance. 

Is that a bit clearer?

We do have a few criteria for helping to judge if a handling is deliberate or not, I can elaborate on those if you want.

Ultimately it's a highly subjective call - and there are too many referees out there who do apply it poorly (such as an accidental handling that falls to a player's feet and penalising that - I'll stress that advantage after an ACCIDENTAL handling is IRRELEVANT.  If the player accidentally handles it, no matter what happens - even if it stops or scores a goal - the player shouldn't be penalised). 

It's also very, very difficult to spot - often it can be extremely difficult to tell if the ball has bounced off a player's arm, chest or shoulder (had one of those in Futsal last week, I swore blind it hit the player's chest but the players swore blind it his his arm.  Who's right? Who knows!).  That's assuming that the player doesn't have his back to the ref blocking his view completely, or another player step in front of the ref at the wrong moment! (I have very bad memories last season of missing what I was later told was a very deliberate handball by an attacker which led to him scoring a goal, thus changing the result of the match.  This incident also resulted in two players being cautioned for dissent, one of which I think later received a 2nd yellow card.  To make matters worse, IIRC this team later missed out the minor premiership by a single game's margin.  Why did I miss it? I got caught on the wrong side of the field after a cross and the player's body was between myself and the ball, thus I couldn't tell if it bounced down off his chest or his hand, as I couldn't even see his arm)

I don't penalise handball very often - a phrase handed down over the years is that 'if you don't call handball 90% of the time, 90% of the time you get it right'. 

Thanks for the kind words grendel - part of the reason I post a referee's perspective on some of the decisions mentioned (even though some have no interest in it, or think I'm sticking up for the ref) is because I've found that the vast majority of dissent comes as the result of players/spectators ignorance of the laws, how they're applied, or the reasoning behind decisions.  That, and it's surprising how often players blowing up for such a reason lose their cool so much that they lose their game (my old team did that a few times).  Nobody benefits.

The laws are written in an absolutely appalling fashion, which I'm sure doesn't help the confusion as we've seen in this thread!

 

[marinermick]

yes that is what i mean

i think there is alot of confusion around the word deliberate for the players, spectators and referees

I think that 'deliberately handles the ball' could be worded better as 'carelessly handles the ball' - that is, if the player could reasonably have avoided handling the ball he should be penalised for failing to do so (this is just how I'd describe it, it hasn't come from anywhere official)

In the Porter case, I certainly don't think he meant to handle the ball - he simply misjudged the bounce.  However, given the time he had to judge the ball and the position of his arms out to the side, making his body wider, and you could say that it's reasonable to expect him to not have handled the ball in that instance. 

Is that a bit clearer?

Yep, never disputed it was a penalty but wanted to know what your opinion on "deliberate" was.

I like your interpretation on the handball being "careless". That is how I see it as well.

Unfortunately, as you said, the rules are written poorly and the confusion comes from this.

We had a midweek catchup game against Toukley and a Toukley player had the ball strike both hands above his head in the penalty box from a cross about twenty metres out. He was jumping for a header. The referee refused to give the penalty and he told us it was accidental.

There is no arguing this because in essence it is an accident - it cetainly was not deliberate. To me though it was almost as identical as the porter penalty with porter's hands being down not up and therefore a penalty. In fact, it was almost identical to the daal penalty given a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Kanwal Bull]

verhead: x thousands

KANWAL AA1 LEAGUE CHAMPIONS

verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead: verhead:

not yet..

 

[Bear]

We had a midweek catchup game against Toukley

Tuggerah