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RIP Wellington Phoenix: 2007-2016

JoyfulPenguin

Well-Known Member
Nice, but irrelevant. For a start, you asked why CCM would not fall foul of a precedent created by a prices that led to WP going out. I've given a solid reason.

It's not an unreasonable rule. WP is in another confederation. Their presence here mucks up our continental qualification and our foreign player rules. It also mucks up the OFC club tournaments. These are not trivial issues. AFC has on a number of occasions noted that these are issues they're not happy with. Rather than be surprised that they might come up again, I would've thought that resolving the issue somehow might be an option.
I can see the issues presented by the Phoenix's presence in our league yet has it really affected us? Let me first focus on the Continental Qualification issue, the Phoenix can not enter the AFC Champions League why does that matter? It affects the AFC in no way whatsoever taking away no places for their member countries. In regards to Oceania's Continental Qualification problems sure it creates a slight paper work headache for the OFC's administrators but wouldn't the OFC benefit from having an actual fully professional club? Now in regards to how the Phoenix would enter the OFC Champions League I'm not sure but possibly some sort of playoff with the ASB Premiership winner? Even if that can't be sorted out do they need to enter the OFC Champions League? They've done fine without it in their eight years of existence. These are all problems that can be solved with smart administration work. In regards to the Phoenix mucking up our foreign player rules once again it can be solved with smart administrative work. The Phoenix also provide development opportunities for Australian players as well as New Zealanders. I'll use an example from this year, they provide professional contracts to nine Australians contracts that wouldn't exist without them. This is why the Phoenix should get an extension for another ten years without them these Australian players wouldn't get an opportunity, sure expansion in Australia will provide another 18 full professional contracts for Australian players but we do not know if this club or clubs will be stable or not. This is something that Phoenix gives us at the very least. Another ten years of professional contracts for around nine Australian players every year should be enough to keep the Phoenix with us.
 

MagpieMariner

Well-Known Member
Of course, having Phoenix in the A-League might give AFC the excuse they've been looking for to boot Australia out of Asia. Some of their officials have said in the past that we shouldn't be playing in Asia, that we're not part of Asia.
 

JoyfulPenguin

Well-Known Member
Of course, having Phoenix in the A-League might give AFC the excuse they've been looking for to boot Australia out of Asia. Some of their officials have said in the past that we shouldn't be playing in Asia, that we're not part of Asia.
So we should bow to a corrupt organisation just because we are being threatened? Surely we should keep our morals and fight for a country who has done a hell of a lot more for us than any Asian country ever has. If we end up in Oceania so be it at least we weren't corrupt like the majority of the AFC and didn't represent what we as a country want. Why should we sacrifice a club just to please some faceless men in the AFC who want to kick us out not because of the Phoenix but because they want an easier ride to the World Cup? We are a country who runs and pays for its own league we the FFA and the Australian people should decide whether or not a club continues in the A-League not the AFC.
Edit: corrected a grammatical error.
 
Last edited:

Forum Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Ok, feeling a little guilty now about all those letters to the FFA just so I could free up my stupid username. I can write them again, but only if Adz will let me have a new name?

Was thinking something even more genius, like... HAL hath no Fury... or profound, like... Only one step from victory, or racehorse elegant, like... former (M0therfcuking) glory.
Sigh.
:doh:
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
I'd like to know where NZ Football stands. I'd also like to know what the working relationship is like between FFA and NZ football.

The FFA's whole of football plan includes that each A-League club include a NYL and W-League presence, along with NPL presences.

Wellington has never had either NYL or W-League presences; they're certainly not about to enter either NPL men or women's comps anywhere.

If FNZ isn't up to speed with us then Wellington Phoenix can't possibly meet the basic requirements that FFA are setting for every other club. This might be what FFA mean by the growth path.

For once, they're talking about something other than money. It's about development pathways for Australian players, with the aim being to ensure that football participants become football fans and vice versa. A NZ presence muddies the waters.

This is a long term project, and is likely the reason why FFA has asked WP to apply for a 4-year extension but not a 10-year extension.

This might be the kicker for NZ to work on bringing the ASB Premiership up to professional standard. They've got a 4-year working period; best they get cracking. I'm sure nobody wants WP to die, but it would be ideal if there were a league in NZ that they can drive on a similar path to that which the A-League has taken over the last 10 years.

On a completely different note, for those worrying about the Central Coast being moved "where the fish are", they had the opportunity to back Charlesworth in moving games to Sydney and were conspicuously silent.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
That team is the equivalent of an NPL side for Australian teams.
I don't understand this. I'm missing something here. Which team is 'that team'?
There isn't a fully professional league in NZ.
I'm aware that there's no professional league in NZ, which is why I was suggesting that WP should apply for the 4 year extension and use it as a window in which to get FNZ to get a professional league off the ground for Phoenix to transition into.
 

rbakersmith

Well-Known Member
I don't understand this. I'm missing something here. Which team is 'that team'?

"That team" is the Phoenix side that sydmariner was referring to.

I'm aware that there's no professional league in NZ, which is why I was suggesting that WP should apply for the 4 year extension and use it as a window in which to get FNZ to get a professional league off the ground for Phoenix to transition into.

NZF and the ASBP are more of a basket case than the FFA and HAL are. There will never be enough financial support from sponsors or broadcast partners to get a sustainable professional league off the ground.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
"That team" is the Phoenix side that sydmariner was referring to.

Ah, I've got SM on my ignore list so his post didn't show up.

NZF and the ASBP are more of a basket case than the FFA and HAL are. There will never be enough financial support from sponsors or broadcast partners to get a sustainable professional league off the ground.

If we had a dollar for every time that was said of SA and the NSL we'd be able to fund their new professional national league for a century or more.
 

JoyfulPenguin

Well-Known Member
Article from Simon Hill:
THERE have been some seismic days for football in Australia over the last decade - World Cup qualification, the move to Asia, the arrival of Alessandro del Piero - and now you can add 26th October, 2015 to the list.

Make no mistake, yesterday’s announcement by FFA that Wellington Phoenix will not be granted their desired 10 year A-League licence extension, is another game changer.

Why? Aside of the devastation it could cause football across the ditch, it also sends a signal that the mooted third Sydney team is firmly on the FFA agenda. Quite why expansion in one market must be accompanied by contraction in another however, is baffling, to this writer at least.

First, let’s deal with the ‘Nix.

My own opinion is that the Phoenix have been - and continue to be - good for the league in many respects. They are the most competitive club ever to come out of New Zealand, they are financially stable, have a committed (if small) fan base, and they also play good football under Ernie Merrick.

On a broader level, it’s also sometimes forgotten that Australia benefited (and continues to benefit) hugely by the “helping hand” given by the many countries to the north, in welcoming the nation into the Asian Football Confederation in 2006. Isn’t it only right that we extend that helping hand to our neighbours, as they try to develop their football?

It’s also true however, that commercially, the numbers don’t add much to the A-League. The 6,000 that showed up on Saturday night prime time to watch the team take on the league leaders, Brisbane, can only be described as disappointing.

The TV deal with Sky Sport fails to deliver significant cash, and ratings are low, both for home games in New Zealand, and whenever the ‘Nix play away in Australia. In corporate speak, the ‘Nix “fail to help the brand.”

It’s estimated that keeping the ‘Nix alive costs Australian football up to $3 million annually - money FFA believe could be better invested in the game here, particularly with regards to development pathways for players.

Those figures however, are disputed by Phoenix Chairman, Rob Morrison. In an interview with Fox Sports in May, Morrison argued it was actually private money from New Zealand contributing to football in Australia - by paying (for example), Nathan Burns’s wages, among others. He did, however, admit that the New Zealand FA needed to make a bigger contribution - another bone of contention at FFA HQ.

As things stand, Phoenix’s licence runs out at the end of the current season - but even if Welnix were prepared to go for the offer of the four-year extension, it’s success would not be guaranteed.

Muddying the waters are the “exemption” clauses needed from the NZFA, Oceania, AFC, and ultimately FIFA, for a non-AFC club to continue playing outside its own confederation.

The reason? AFC could soon face problems of its own, over a mooted ASEAN Super League. The countries involved - Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia - contain some clubs that are hugely in favour, but others aren’t so keen. AFC, keen to avoid conflict, may not want to set a precedent by offering a club an “opt-out” from its own domestic competition, as is currently the case with Wellington.

Presuming then, Wellington are not long for the competition, is the third Sydney franchise ready to go? Perhaps even as early as next season? The answer is unclear.

While there is no doubt the “Shire” region has big playing numbers, one consortium at least, says it is no longer interested. George Koulouris, restaurateur, and President of the Cronulla Seagulls FC, was part of a group interested in obtaining a licence - and he says they had significant overseas backing.

But plans to base the team out of Cronulla (Remondis Stadium), ran aground after the local NRL team appointed it’s new CEO. Koulouris now says the groups football focus is on overseas investment, not Australia.

Bruce Gordon, owner of WIN Television and more readily associated with Rugby League, has long been touted as an A-League investor. It’s rumoured his Chief Executive at WIN, Andrew Lancaster, has held meetings with FFA officials. But the feeling is, Gordon would prefer an exclusively Wollongong-based team, reportedly not the favoured model of FFA.

Investment from abroad is still a possibility, with a group from China rumoured to be in the mix - and there may be others. FFA has clearly set its course fairly & squarely on a third team in the southern part of Australia’s biggest city - and you’d imagine at least some backing is in place, otherwise the timing of yesterday’s announcement is, frankly, odd.

Are Wellington to be the fall guys? I hope not - and there’s still time.

Professional club football in New Zealand is - as of today - on life support, and the football (and business community) across the ditch have to make a choice whether to try and revive it, or let it die. That would be a travesty, after eight years hard work - first by Terry Serepisos, and now the Welnix group. With Rugby Union so dominant, the pro game would probably never return. This is its last chance.

Almost ten years since Frank Lowy unfurled the Australian flag at AFC House, as Australia were welcomed into the fold in the spirit of generosity, what a terrible last act of the Lowy administration that would represent. Killing off the professional club game in Oceania, the home we left behind.


http://www.foxsports.com.au/footbal...s-a-game-changer/story-e6frf4gl-1227583562475
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
That captures it.

Massive head vs heart battle here.

It's hard to make a commercial, development or governance angle to keep them, and in terms of the subsidy that FFA is effectively delivering for not much direct benefit to football in this country, the complications at AFC, the mismatch of development pathways etc. their problems are a bigger problem for FFA than anything that Gold Coast or North Queensland presented.

At the same time, it's hard to say to a club that they're not wanted.
 

VicMariner

Well-Known Member
Most of that was an issue with an NZ club at the start of the HAL and the rest probably foreseeable.
Why have an NZ team at all then? FFA started down that path willingly, they should see it through.

WP have been around a while, they are a decent club and a lot less trouble then a lot of other HAL clubs over the years.
Just like when NQF were axed, this is going to annoy a lot of football fans, not just Nix fans.
Is the ill feeling worth it? I guess there is a corporate white board with the answer in graph form somewhere.
 

FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
Apparently costs the HAL $3m a season to have Nix in the comp.

NZF, Nix etc need to decide whether they are prepared to fund that as Australian football don't want to any more it seems.

Personally, I think the AFC issue is too big to ignore. Sounds to me that the Nix might be collateral damage in some sort of deal.

This is purely about money. Football is purely about money. Sad but that's the way it is.

Talking about people only doing things for money. Wonder where Wee Mac will end up when it ends?
 

FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
Most of that was an issue with an NZ club at the start of the HAL and the rest probably foreseeable.
Why have an NZ team at all then? FFA started down that path willingly, they should see it through.

WP have been around a while, they are a decent club and a lot less trouble then a lot of other HAL clubs over the years.
Just like when NQF were axed, this is going to annoy a lot of football fans, not just Nix fans.
Is the ill feeling worth it? I guess there is a corporate white board with the answer in graph form somewhere.

The vast majority of Coast residents don't even know when we play. I'm guessing Nix issue is so irrelevant to the target market that you wouldn't bother to whiteboard it
 

Rowdy

Well-Known Member
Talking about people only doing things for money. Wonder where Wee Mac will end up when it ends?

He should have 'stayed to get paid' where he agreed to 'play for pay' ..... WITH US!

Overtime, Mikey could have gained his Aussie citezenship, then not taken a visa-spot for a long term future in the A-League.

No Phoenix means his put all his eggz in the one basket & he's 'land-locked' across the 'duutch' as a visa-player in the A-League's forseeable.
 

Rowdy

Well-Known Member
Article from Simon Hill:
It’s estimated that keeping the ‘Nix alive costs Australian football up to $3 million annually - money FFA believe could be better invested in the game here, particularly with regards to development pathways for players.

The FFA should take that ca$h & spend it on setting up the infrastructure for future digital streaming and start with the NPL leagues of Qld, NSW & Vic.

(Or get a dedicated FFA Channel :tv: for Football like the frick'n AFL already HAS!)

It will let them 'dip their toes' for when Foxtel isn't required with an established NBN. :rolleyes:

The NRL has its versions of NPL already 'streamed' courtesy of Foxtel. i.e Qld Super Cup, The Holden Cup NYC. across the Foxsports 1,2 & 3 channels WITH repeats.

The FFA should be demanding the same in the next media deal for the 'growth of OUR game' at these same tiers within the sport.

Believe it or not there are people who subscribe to Fox purely for the A-League & Socceroo's. They don't follow EPL, La Liga or other overseas leagues. They just want to follow local football.

Watching players live or delayed in an NPL, then to watch those same players progress to the next level is what I'M INTERESTED in paying for and so too are others. Not that as a current subscriber I should have to fork out more $$$'s like for beIN SPORTS etc.

A-League coaches then can easily track up and coming young players, players who have matured later in their development like the Jedinaks, thd Blake Powells & Heffernan 2.0's.

Then we might realise we have ample talent across this wide brown land for a much, much larger A-League. One with even a promotion and relegation.
 

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