GA and the Russians

[Nathan Byrn]

This is a very, very good question but it has to be looked at on two different levels.

1. What extent or involvement would members or supporters be willing to commit to on a yearly basis?

2. What level of involvment would the mariners staff, board or Peter Turnbell allow from supporting members?

I propose these two questions because the clearest way forward i can see to "assist" the long term viability and sustainability of the mariners is a.....

SUPPORTERS/ MEMBERS TRUST

We have heard this all before, but done right and with the right methodology it would greatly assist the club both operationally and fiscal.

This is why it would be very important to gage the measure of the questions above.

As members of the trust how do people assist? Time, Money or both? These have the potential to vary on a massive scale. A one off $ sum per year or someone who is a committee member on a trust with ongoing responsibilities.

Why would people commit to this while at the moment there is a lack of openness and accountability from the club? If a successful trust erects then it would need to have representation on the Mariners board, a voice from us.

If you had 5000 trust members commit more or less of $50 a year, thats $250,000 that the trust and its members can determine where to use.

Example- Pay Arnold all money owed so he doesn't leave.
Top up Rogic contract next year to make it worth him staying
Put money towards the mariners youth development program to help unearth more Rogic's, Amini's and Ibini's
Money towards a better clubhouse for players
The choice would be the trusts for the benefit of the Mariners and not the owner.

Also the Trust Members with time could help drive Season Memberships for extended periods to help increase revenue or help in the Mariners office to help ease the burden on our already overworked and skeletal staff.

These are just a brief of its potential and it would be another step in the Mariners being truly a community club, where the members have a say. There are soooooo many people out there that are VERY committed to the Mariners and would do anything to help them survive and flourish for the long term.

I am only one, but I am willing to put my hand up to HELP both with time and money. I have been a member since day one and I want that to continue till I die!!

If there are others who are ready to fight for our club lets do something and not just talk.

The Central Coast has 13,000 registered players. The CCF should be a stakeholder in the club. There have been suggestions by many people to involve the football community in this way. The biggest problem the CCF have is their lack of vision in terms of generating revenue. They have not passed on a registration increase to the members in three years not even at CPI. So with costs increasing they to face issues going forward.
And the problem is that say if each player was slugged 10-20 dollars, plus the increases which will have to occur the cost of registration will become even more un-affordable to people in our region.

Gold coast are considering this option.
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/233907,gold-coast-the-fight-goes-on.aspx

 

[MagpieMariner]

Maybe we should enlist Eddie McGuire. When he took over Collingwood in the late 90's, the club was nearly bankrupt. Now it's the richest (or at least one of the richest) clubs in Australia in any code.
We could do a lot worse

 

[dibo]

The Mariners are purported to have a $750k deficit. If CCF had 15k players we are at $50pp to fill the hole.

 

[Nathan Byrn]

The Mariners are purported to have a $750k deficit. If CCF had 15k players we are at $50pp to fill the hole.

Please read my post.

 

[scottmac]

If the COE was on the table in a potential buy out or invesment, what would that do to the investment cost? 3x, 6x, 9x ?? Would it even make it more attractive or would it be something considered a burden and a risk?

 

[adz]

Maybe we should enlist Eddie McGuire. When he took over Collingwood in the late 90's, the club was nearly bankrupt. Now it's the richest (or at least one of the richest) clubs in Australia in any code.
We could do a lot worse

In 2011 they had $75.5 million revenue, and expenses include;

$19 million on "Football expenses"
$15 million on "Marketing, merchandise and sponsorship expenses"
$7 million on "Membership expenses"

Profit of $2 million, half a million "cash on hand" and just a tick over $10 million in the bank.


That would be nice!

 

[Nathan Byrn]

In 2011 they had $75.5 million revenue, and expenses include;

$19 million on "Football expenses"
$15 million on "Marketing, merchandise and sponsorship expenses"
$7 million on "Membership expenses"

Profit of $2 million and half a million "cash on hand" with just a tick over $10 million in the bank.


That would be nice!

Frank and others...
That is good management
That is good business
Establishing key principles around their core business drivers
and through innovation and diversification into new and alligned markets or products.
If the expertise is not contained within the current business unit - OUTSOURCE.
Focus on what you do best.

 

[FFC Mariner]

A supporters trust wouldnt be too hard to get going. Set up costs etc wouldnt be expensive. Id happily support the formation of one (properly constituted etc)

The wisest way to do it would be to have a trustee hold funds raised until club agreed what equity available in return for board representation. Let them keep CoE initially to reduce potential liabilities for trust and make the clubs current owners more likely to do a deal.

5,000 would seem optimistic but 1,000 might be doable.

I'd guesstimate that we have around 1,000 memberships (maybe 2,000 people all up) and if they were prepared to kick the tin in return for a stake in the trust you have a start.

The models proposed have come from Fury, Gold Coast and to an extend the fledgling Canberra bid.

Worth exploring the establishment even if club not interested in selling some equity so that it is in place should the worst happen.

 

[dibo]

Please read my post.

I read it, and it's clear that whether by slugging it on fees or driving sponsorship, that's a far bigger hole than could be filled from CCF members.

From a stab at player numbers and fees, I'd say CCF draws somewhere near $900k on rego fees (excluding passthroughs) per year. Affiliations would be another at least half again, so at the very least about $1.5 million is coming from fees.

I'm not sure what sponsorship brings in, but it won't be anything like the income required in even the most ridiculously generous of times. Driving that sort of extra money just won't happen.

 

[scoober]

The Mariners are purported to have a $750k deficit. If CCF had 15k players we are at $50pp to fill the hole.

In my original post about a trust it HAS to be a separate entity from the Mariners, from CCF and anyone else.

You cannot (although has happened in the past) sponge off unwilling or un-informed public to fix a hole.

The idea of a trust is it is totally voluntary to join and voluntary on the level of involvement/ commitment. So it would take time and effort to evolve from an initial committee to getting our core support to being contributing trust members.

This or something similar needs to happen. Forget Collingwood, our club is still very much an infant, and is need of support but also in need of a voice of those who are so passionate for it.

 

[dibo]

I think it would be a nice symbol, but it won't be the magic bullet either - the sums required are too big and likely number of supporters too small. From the occasional club update it would seem we have no more than about 3000 people willing to get season tickets, so getting even that many to contribute to a trust is unlikely. From there, any drop of numbers increases the required sum.

from something I posted quite a while back but edited to take account of an apparent $750k structural deficit: It's an idea that is attractive, but let's unpack it a little bit, starting with a look at the Packers example (see http://en.wikipedia....n_Bay_Packers):

There are 112,015 people, representing 4,750,934 shares, that can lay claim to a franchise ownership interest. Shares of stock include voting rights, but the redemption price is minimal, no dividends are ever paid, the stock cannot appreciate in value (though private sales often exceed the face value of the stock), and stock ownership brings no season ticket privileges. No shareholder may own over 200,000 shares, a safeguard to ensure that no individual can assume control of the club. To run the corporation, a board of directors is elected by the stockholders.

The last stock sale was priced at $200 per share. At that price, to fill our recurrent $750k deficit we'd need to sell 3750 shares each year to the new TV deal.

Remembering that many of our members are kids, we might be talking about several shares per adult member.

Football clubs eat money, so if the first offering doesn't tide us over to the new deal then the first equity offering won't be the last. *Excess* demand will therefore be limited because there is extra stock being issued, so you can't grow the value of the share. They're not going to pay dividends, because they'll reinvest any cent they *do* make (if they ever make any).

Can you and all your mates even afford to drop up to $2000 on something to make you feel good, where you know you'll get no return on your money, and in all likelihood the club will come knocking again in a couple of years?

It's one of those really nice warm fuzzy ideas that has a few pretty major practical difficulties to it.

 

[scoober]

A trust set up more in line with the Mariners, would be Exeter City FC, League One in England. Average home attendance @5500

Take a look at the link

http://www.ecfcst.org.uk/home/trust-history/

Hope it works, sorry not to tech savvy.

 

[Nathan Byrn]

I read it, and it's clear that whether by slugging it on fees or driving sponsorship, that's a far bigger hole than could be filled from CCF members.

From a stab at player numbers and fees, I'd say CCF draws somewhere near $900k on rego fees (excluding passthroughs) per year. Affiliations would be another at least half again, so at the very least about $1.5 million is coming from fees.

I'm not sure what sponsorship brings in, but it won't be anything like the income required in even the most ridiculously generous of times. Driving that sort of extra money just won't happen.

The CCF could be a stakeholder.. Not the answer, it would further engage the core football community. Don't be clouded by the fog....

 

[dibo]

In short, the club was going tits up and the Trust bought the club for GBP20k and in so doing bought GBP4.5m. They agreed to pay 10% (eventually paying 7.1%) of the debts for control. So in the end they raised GBP300k or about $500k just to clear debts, and then got going on stadium work and the general work of getting the club going again.

They've got average crowds of 5,500 but have 2,600 members of the trust who have contributed consistently for 10 years. They've also got 108 years of history.

Our club has an annual budget of around $8m. We have annual losses of $750k, but we're reputed to owe >$1m to the ATO and will owe $4m at the end of the year to Wyong Leagues (?). We're going to need serious wedge, and I don't we go deep enough to be able to cover that with contributions from the grassroots.

 

[true believer]

The last stock sale was priced at $200 per share. At that price, to fill our recurrent $750k deficit we'd need to sell 3750 shares each year to the new TV deal.

Remembering that many of our members are kids, we might be talking about several shares per adult member.

Football clubs eat money, so if the first offering doesn't tide us over to the new deal then the first equity offering won't be the last. *Excess* demand will therefore be limited because there is extra stock being issued, so you can't grow the value of the share. They're not going to pay dividends, because they'll reinvest any cent they *do* make (if they ever make any).

Can you and all your mates even afford to drop up to $2000 on something to make you feel good, where you know you'll get no return on your money, and in all likelihood the club will come knocking again in a couple of years?

It's one of those really nice warm fuzzy ideas that has a few pretty major practical difficulties to it.

as dibo has stated

it's an up hill battle. atleast it's a starting point

if you got a 100k you'd have something.

did we fill every corporate box this year? if not a community raffle with the a box for the season as a prize.

offer a membership without tickets.

instead of issuing extra tickets to the members give 500 away a week at erina, whatever. to get new people in

 

[scoober]

In short, the club was going tits up and the Trust bought the club for GBP20k and in so doing bought GBP4.5m. They agreed to pay 10% (eventually paying 7.1%) of the debts for control. So in the end they raised GBP300k or about $500k just to clear debts, and then got going on stadium work and the general work of getting the club going again.

They've got average crowds of 5,500 but have 2,600 members of the trust who have contributed consistently for 10 years. They've also got 108 years of history.

Our club has an annual budget of around $8m. We have annual losses of $750k, but we're reputed to owe >$1m to the ATO and will owe $4m at the end of the year to Wyong Leagues (?). We're going to need serious wedge, and I don't we go deep enough to be able to cover that with contributions from the grassroots.

Never said a supporters trust is the be all and end all. Is a way of supporters helping! It can work to assist a club like ours. Debts will be debts and the Mariners must move to rectify them. A trust would be only achievable if you looked long term, not at the tip of your nose.

I would like to try and help, not just throw my hands in the air and say its too hard. I did say trust members can not only contribute money, but also valuable time in driving season ticket sales and helping in jobs where Mariners might be paying people to do etc.

Too many shoulder shruggers who say they care but aren't ready to step up and help the longevity of the club.... no matter how small the contribution!

 

[bloggo]

If we are serious for long term survival we need to adopt the following business model:

Bugger a Perth man beat us to it, must've kicked the business plan into gear when Sage wanted to leave.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/13110317/man-29-accused-of-being-helena-valley-knickers-thief/

 

[dibo]

Never said a supporters trust is the be all and end all. Is a way of supporters helping! It can work to assist a club like ours. Debts will be debts and the Mariners must move to rectify them. A trust would be only achievable if you looked long term, not at the tip of your nose.

I would like to try and help, not just throw my hands in the air and say its too hard. I did say trust members can not only contribute money, but also valuable time in driving season ticket sales and helping in jobs where Mariners might be paying people to do etc.

Too many shoulder shruggers who say they care but aren't ready to step up and help the longevity of the club.... no matter how small the contribution!

That I don't think it's a panacea doesn't mean I don't think it's worth doing. Building, deepening and reinforcing commitment to the club is a great idea. Feeling like we've got skin in the game, like we're a part of it, is a great idea. I *do* think we ought to do it, I just don't think we should hold any false ideas about what it means.

 

[scoober]

That I don't think it's a panacea doesn't mean I don't think it's worth doing. Building, deepening and reinforcing commitment to the club is a great idea. Feeling like we've got skin in the game, like we're a part of it, is a great idea. I *do* think we ought to do it, I just don't think we should hold any false ideas about what it means.

I agree, its not the white knight and never will be.... All help counts, its just structured and centred around the club we love.

 

[midfielder]

On the 750 loss this year and the 1 million owing.. plus say other things .. assume two million...

2 million divided by 16 games... i.e 13 home games in the A-League & 3 ACL matches ... or the past 13 games ...

Each 1, 000 through the gate on a match day at $ 20.00 per ticket is $ 2, 000...

If we could lift the gate to around 13.5 K say 4 K more than ... 4 K at 13 home games is 52 K at $ 20.00 per ticket is one million and forty thousand dollars...

I understand how easy it is to say just lift the crowd ... but the simple fact is not enough people are coming to our home games ... this is the long term solution...

IMO the mistake (if that is the right word) is we needed to get to the football community early on and say we need your help...

Just say we got 20K for our AU match instead of the 8K we will proably get ... 12 K at $20.00 is $ 240, 000 plus any sale of shirts etc...

I was in the mall at Woy Woy last saturday and countered 12 NRL shirts, two Super Rugby shirts, three cricket shirts all worn by people over 20, I saw three Mariner shirts worn by kids...

The simple fact is we need 12 K to 14K to run the club... how we get there is open for debate ... but I think we have 15, 000 players plus their extended familes ... this is where a lot more needs to be done in the selling match day tickets IMO...