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Formula 1
- Thread starter Bex
- Start date
bulldogmariner
Well-Known Member
Webber to go back to back at Monaco.
scottmac
Suspended
Lisarow Yellow (Pooley) said:
The other side of that argument is that a world champion in an average car has zero chance of winning anything. The powerfull car is the only way to win in F1. If you don't have it you don't win.
Hamilton was handed his success. He is a good driver but it ends there. There are drivers better than he is. Wouldn't it have been good to see if Hamilton was good enough to get a Minardi on the podium! Oh thats right, we will never see what he was like in a slow car will we?
Bex
Well-Known Member
What impresses me the most is that Webber is currently significantly quicker than Vettel. I rate Vettel very highly and for Webber to outqualify him at Monaco by 0.3 second in the same car is very impressive. Its the sort of advantage Webber has enjoyed with every team mate up until now but his other team mates haven't been of the same standard as Vettel. I'm still thinking Vettel is a more capable racer than Webber, but Webber has always depended on exceptional pace and qualifying ability and if he can continue outqualifying Vettel in this car I reckon that, subject to a big comeback in form from another team, Webber is likely to be on his way to a world title.
serious14
Well-Known Member
Vettel - immature, absolutely _stupid_ attempt at a pass. Showed his true colors today, what a dick. Thankfully Webber held it together to still be leading the Championship after coming 3rd.
Anyone else feel that Turkey is under-rated as a track?? Obviously Turn 8 is universally praised, but I quite enjoy the rest of it as well.
Anyone else feel that Turkey is under-rated as a track?? Obviously Turn 8 is universally praised, but I quite enjoy the rest of it as well.
serious14
Well-Known Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZUsafUQGNA&feature=player_embedded#!
110% Vettel's fault. So pissed at him, Webber was spot on for the win otherwise.
Vettel - "I was ahead and just going down to focus on the braking point and honestly, you can see we touched and he touched my right rear wheel and I went off." Dick.
110% Vettel's fault. So pissed at him, Webber was spot on for the win otherwise.
Vettel - "I was ahead and just going down to focus on the braking point and honestly, you can see we touched and he touched my right rear wheel and I went off." Dick.
serious14
Well-Known Member
Press conference with Webber..... something's not right here - seems that RBR are prioritising Vettel, or he's acting like a weasily little shit who throws his toys around when he doesn't get his own way. Very disappointing stance from Horner.
Q. Is there any reason why he had a jump on you on that particular lap?
MW: Hmm. Maybe.
Q. Did you come out of the previous corner a bit slower on that lap?
MW: Hmm. You guys need to dig more, somewhere else.
Q. What do you think the reaction's going to be back with the team?
MW: Oh, disappointment of course. We don't come here to have contact with each other but it happened today and I felt reasonably comfortable with my side of things, I did my best today.
Q. (Bob McKenzie - The Daily Express) Mark, you might not have seen it because you were busy driving but as Sebastian walked away from the car, on a couple of occasions, he gave the global sign for mental. Do you think you were in any way responsible for what happened?
MW: No.
Q. (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Mark, did you know if Seb ignored an order to save fuel?
MW: No, wouldn't have a clue, mate.
Q. (Livio Oricchio O Estado de Sao Paulo) Mark, was your strategy to keep Vettel inside, not to make him brake before and you keep your position, even if you brake late, he would go straight?
MW: It wasn't my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner obviously. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously in a very strong position, but before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn't react fast enough, because I wasn't at all expecting that at that point, and that's why it happened so fast and there was contact. Of course in Seb's car, it obviously feels very bad for him that I've turned left into him, but I'm pretty confident that there was some drift from his way and then it was a xxxxing disaster. So you have the line.
Also, this - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050
Mark Webber had to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried to pull a move on him for the lead, Red Bull Racing has confirmed, but the team insists that was still no excuse for its drivers colliding.
Mystery surrounded the exact circumstances of what happened on lap 40, when Vettel closed in on Webber and drafted past him on the back straight before they crashed into each other.
Suspicions that all was not straightforward surfaced immediately after the race when Webber told journalists in the post-race press conference that they should 'dig more' to find out what had really happened.
Although the team initially believed that both its drivers were running exactly the same engine settings during their battle for the lead, the post-race debrief on Sunday night revealed that Webber had needed to save fuel and turn his engine down on lap 40 - while Vettel was still able to run at full power.
Even though such an order may not have come directly from the pits via the radio, a readout on Webber's dashboard would probably have told him that he needed to begin conserving fuel.
Vettel had been able to save fuel when running behind other cars early on, and he had enough extra petrol on board to be able to run one more lap at full power before he too would have had to turn his engine down.
That meant his only realistic chance of getting past Webber was on lap 40, when he would have enjoyed a brief car advantage over his team-mate.
Speaking in the Istanbul paddock on Sunday night, team principal Christian Horner said that he was finally aware of what had happened in the race.
"We now have all the facts," he said. "Mark had changed down into a fuel saving mode that cost him a little bit of performance on the straights, which also explains how Sebastian got a very clear run on him.
"The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel.
"Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn't back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind."
He added: "The frustrating thing is we have given away 28 points today and it should have been a 1-2. Both drivers have also lost points. From a team point of view it doesn't matter which way around they are, but the priority is to finish 1-2 and that is exactly what we should have done today."
Horner did not feel either driver was any more responsible than the other for the crash - but said that he was disappointed they had not given each other enough room.
"I think Mark put Sebastian on the dirty side, gave him just enough room and Sebastian came across obviously quite aggressively - but he was quite a long way down the side.
"So, it was very, very frustrating. We saw the McLarens racing each other and giving themselves a bit more room, we've seen drivers racing each other previously in Malaysia - which springs to mind as a recent race and they are usually very, very good at giving each other room. Today, for whatever reason, that didn't happen."
Horner was confident, however, that there would be no lingering hard-feeling between the drivers over the crash and that Red Bull Racing would be able to shift its focus on to winning the next race on the calendar in Canada.
"Absolutely. This will be dealt with before we go to Canada. I've spoken to both drivers. They are both grown ups, they are both big boys, they are both competitors, and the most important thing is that we have given away a load of points today. It must not happen again. They must learn from it.
"It is right to let the drivers race. We saw McLaren today letting their drivers race, but when drivers are in the same team it is important that they give each other a bit more respect and concede if one has got a run on the other."
Horner also denied suggestions that the Turkish Grand Prix provided any evidence that Red Bull Racing favoured Vettel over Webber.
"Both our drivers are treated absolutely equally," he said. "They both have the same equipment, they both have the same opportunity. That is a policy we operate and that is the way that the team is he managed to save a bit more fuel because he was in a slipstream for some of the race and he took advantage of that as is his right to do.
"He [Vettel] was under a lot of pressure from Hamilton behind, which got him into a position to pass Mark. Our priority at that stage is that we want to win the race. Even if the cars wanted to change position we were still first and second, and it is still 43 points for the team and both drivers were pulling away from McLaren in the championship."
Q. Is there any reason why he had a jump on you on that particular lap?
MW: Hmm. Maybe.
Q. Did you come out of the previous corner a bit slower on that lap?
MW: Hmm. You guys need to dig more, somewhere else.
Q. What do you think the reaction's going to be back with the team?
MW: Oh, disappointment of course. We don't come here to have contact with each other but it happened today and I felt reasonably comfortable with my side of things, I did my best today.
Q. (Bob McKenzie - The Daily Express) Mark, you might not have seen it because you were busy driving but as Sebastian walked away from the car, on a couple of occasions, he gave the global sign for mental. Do you think you were in any way responsible for what happened?
MW: No.
Q. (Adam Hay-Nicholls - Metro) Mark, did you know if Seb ignored an order to save fuel?
MW: No, wouldn't have a clue, mate.
Q. (Livio Oricchio O Estado de Sao Paulo) Mark, was your strategy to keep Vettel inside, not to make him brake before and you keep your position, even if you brake late, he would go straight?
MW: It wasn't my plan to get him on the inside but he got there and I thought OK, I would just stay in the middle, as straight as I can, to make his line as tight as possible into the next corner obviously. And once we got to the braking point, he was obviously in a very strong position, but before we got there he came across to the right and I couldn't react fast enough, because I wasn't at all expecting that at that point, and that's why it happened so fast and there was contact. Of course in Seb's car, it obviously feels very bad for him that I've turned left into him, but I'm pretty confident that there was some drift from his way and then it was a xxxxing disaster. So you have the line.
Also, this - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050
Mark Webber had to turn his engine down on the lap that Sebastian Vettel tried to pull a move on him for the lead, Red Bull Racing has confirmed, but the team insists that was still no excuse for its drivers colliding.
Mystery surrounded the exact circumstances of what happened on lap 40, when Vettel closed in on Webber and drafted past him on the back straight before they crashed into each other.
Suspicions that all was not straightforward surfaced immediately after the race when Webber told journalists in the post-race press conference that they should 'dig more' to find out what had really happened.
Although the team initially believed that both its drivers were running exactly the same engine settings during their battle for the lead, the post-race debrief on Sunday night revealed that Webber had needed to save fuel and turn his engine down on lap 40 - while Vettel was still able to run at full power.
Even though such an order may not have come directly from the pits via the radio, a readout on Webber's dashboard would probably have told him that he needed to begin conserving fuel.
Vettel had been able to save fuel when running behind other cars early on, and he had enough extra petrol on board to be able to run one more lap at full power before he too would have had to turn his engine down.
That meant his only realistic chance of getting past Webber was on lap 40, when he would have enjoyed a brief car advantage over his team-mate.
Speaking in the Istanbul paddock on Sunday night, team principal Christian Horner said that he was finally aware of what had happened in the race.
"We now have all the facts," he said. "Mark had changed down into a fuel saving mode that cost him a little bit of performance on the straights, which also explains how Sebastian got a very clear run on him.
"The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel.
"Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn't back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind."
He added: "The frustrating thing is we have given away 28 points today and it should have been a 1-2. Both drivers have also lost points. From a team point of view it doesn't matter which way around they are, but the priority is to finish 1-2 and that is exactly what we should have done today."
Horner did not feel either driver was any more responsible than the other for the crash - but said that he was disappointed they had not given each other enough room.
"I think Mark put Sebastian on the dirty side, gave him just enough room and Sebastian came across obviously quite aggressively - but he was quite a long way down the side.
"So, it was very, very frustrating. We saw the McLarens racing each other and giving themselves a bit more room, we've seen drivers racing each other previously in Malaysia - which springs to mind as a recent race and they are usually very, very good at giving each other room. Today, for whatever reason, that didn't happen."
Horner was confident, however, that there would be no lingering hard-feeling between the drivers over the crash and that Red Bull Racing would be able to shift its focus on to winning the next race on the calendar in Canada.
"Absolutely. This will be dealt with before we go to Canada. I've spoken to both drivers. They are both grown ups, they are both big boys, they are both competitors, and the most important thing is that we have given away a load of points today. It must not happen again. They must learn from it.
"It is right to let the drivers race. We saw McLaren today letting their drivers race, but when drivers are in the same team it is important that they give each other a bit more respect and concede if one has got a run on the other."
Horner also denied suggestions that the Turkish Grand Prix provided any evidence that Red Bull Racing favoured Vettel over Webber.
"Both our drivers are treated absolutely equally," he said. "They both have the same equipment, they both have the same opportunity. That is a policy we operate and that is the way that the team is he managed to save a bit more fuel because he was in a slipstream for some of the race and he took advantage of that as is his right to do.
"He [Vettel] was under a lot of pressure from Hamilton behind, which got him into a position to pass Mark. Our priority at that stage is that we want to win the race. Even if the cars wanted to change position we were still first and second, and it is still 43 points for the team and both drivers were pulling away from McLaren in the championship."
serious14
Well-Known Member
P.S. Say you're on the F3 - you're overtaking someone and need to get in the same lane as them, what would you do?? Make a clean pass and change lanes, or just get half your car in front, cut across and hope the other guy slams his brakes to avoid ramming into you?? Answer that honestly and you'll know that Vettel was entirely at fault.
P.P.S. I think Webber is going to gain many more fans out of this - no-one likes to see an honest/good guy hung out to dry.
P.P.S. I think Webber is going to gain many more fans out of this - no-one likes to see an honest/good guy hung out to dry.
dibo
Well-Known Member
I think Vettel was trying to muscle Webber out and Webber was holding his line in a similarly muscular way. To Vettel it feels like Webber goes left because relative to the racing line he *does*. He ran out wider on the exit to squeeze Vettel for the next corner. This is perfectly normal defence of a position. He didn't swerve towards Vettel. He didn't block or weave.
Given the next corner was a left right, Vettel had a clear line to pass up the inside. He would have had to brake earlier, but had he held his line down to the next left he would have made it through anyway because Webber wouldn't have risked closing the door and having him overshoot and take them both out. Webber would have essentially tried to watch Vettel overshoot and duck up the inside as he passed by.
That's where the difference lies though - Webber's defence was low-risk. I think Webber would have preserved the car and saved points.
S14 - analogies to the F3 are pointless. It's not the F3. At times that's exactly how passing manoeuveres work. *This* one didn't work because Vettel misjudged where he was relative to the other car. He didn't understand what his opponent was doing and change his plan. He was dumb more than anything, he failed to react.
As for Horner, I don't think there's a conspiracy inside RBR - the explanation from Horner's perfectly reasonable. Vettel's tyres would have been shot but it's true he would have used less fuel for being in the slipstream for 40 laps.
Given the next corner was a left right, Vettel had a clear line to pass up the inside. He would have had to brake earlier, but had he held his line down to the next left he would have made it through anyway because Webber wouldn't have risked closing the door and having him overshoot and take them both out. Webber would have essentially tried to watch Vettel overshoot and duck up the inside as he passed by.
That's where the difference lies though - Webber's defence was low-risk. I think Webber would have preserved the car and saved points.
S14 - analogies to the F3 are pointless. It's not the F3. At times that's exactly how passing manoeuveres work. *This* one didn't work because Vettel misjudged where he was relative to the other car. He didn't understand what his opponent was doing and change his plan. He was dumb more than anything, he failed to react.
As for Horner, I don't think there's a conspiracy inside RBR - the explanation from Horner's perfectly reasonable. Vettel's tyres would have been shot but it's true he would have used less fuel for being in the slipstream for 40 laps.
serious14
Well-Known Member
dibo said:
Oh, I'm not suggesting a conspiracy - I'm blatantly saying that they're favouring him and that based on form so far this season that it's the wrong decision to make.
Horner's explanation is flawed in that Webber, who had held off Lewis for forty laps, was expected to give up his lead to Vettel, and then hold up Lewis (despite having a slower car according to Horner) and play rear gunner. This is rather odd to me, given that Webber had showed over 40 laps that he could hold off Hamilton comfortably (some excellent defensive driving on the chicanes leading into pit straight through the first 11 laps), but Vettel had shown on the first lap that Lewis could overtake him??
dibo
Well-Known Member
Horner won't like to see either of his drivers aggressively defending against the other. It's always risky. Running an opponent wide or closing the door is always riskier than opening the door and trying to take the spot back later.
Horner's view is that a driver should always take an advantage where it's there and Vettel got a far better run on the preceding corner, hence he was alongside and probably half in front.
Horner won't want Vettel to be squeezed up because there's the chance that braking on the marbles he'll shoot straight off. RBR would want the line to be opened up so both cars (and 43 points) make it round the corner intact.
Horner's view is that a driver should always take an advantage where it's there and Vettel got a far better run on the preceding corner, hence he was alongside and probably half in front.
Horner won't want Vettel to be squeezed up because there's the chance that braking on the marbles he'll shoot straight off. RBR would want the line to be opened up so both cars (and 43 points) make it round the corner intact.
Lisarow Yellow (Pooley)
Well-Known Member
LEWIS!!!!!!!! 
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