Climate change & emissions trading

[dibo]

Those determined to be disappointed will always find a way to be so.

You've used this quote before, Dibo, come on man, expand your horizons.

i'll borrow from tim flannery on newsradio this morning - it's very easy to be a condom on the prick of progress.

You mean safe, reliable and very likely preventing something unwanted happening?

not exactly - that's why i didn't use it first.

for those opposed to action it seems to be because of any of a range of these things:

• you don't think climate change is a problem;
• you don't like kevin rudd;
• you don't think the solutions proposed will help and want something different;
• you're concerned bankers and traders will make money off it;
• you think that other nations might not live up to their end of the bargain, or;
• you think it's all too hard?

they're not always internally consistent. the only consistent thing is 'no'. the libs and nats in particular are not at all fussy about being internally consistent. anything that in their view boosts the 'no' case is gold to them, never mind if it directly contradicts what they said the week before.

 

[hasbeen]

I agree totally with you Dibo, the Libs & Nats are merely opposed to the incumbent Govt's policies regardless. I'm not a Krudd supporter (that's obvious) but then again I'm not a fan of Abbott, Joyce & the rest of the gainsayers either. France have already put petrol up 4 cents a litre as an insurance, but fortunately they can afford not to raise electricity prices given 80% of their power comes from nulear. I'm just sceptical of the government's policies, and as I said earlier, I abhor Krudd using the world stage to enhance his profile. He really does look like he's offering himself up as a future UN delegate. 

 

[FFC Mariner]

Krudd has policies?

running around trying to bribe tin pot little states does not sound like a policy to me?

Better the wankfest fail and join the long list of other wankfests than come up with some half arsed mess of an agreement.

We get to do this all over again in 2012 I think dont we?

 

[midfielder]

Dibo

The local rage in Byron, I got a copy for you their christmas special some great articles on climate change ... I think you would enjoy it when I get back from my hols can I leave at the CCLC for you to pick up...

 

[hasbeen]

From today's SMH ...
"Europe was set to shiver through bitterly cold temperatures on Thursday, as Britain braced for more snow that has already caused chaos amid its most brutal winter in decades."

Global warming? Please explain.

 

[kevrenor]

From today's SMH ...
"Europe was set to shiver through bitterly cold temperatures on Thursday, as Britain braced for more snow that has already caused chaos amid its most brutal winter in decades."

Global warming? Please explain.

It only gets warmer on average *ie. a lot warmer in most places, and colder in others) .. in fact if it warms up, the Gulf Stream may weaken and the UK and western europe get colder (see Little Ice Age 1300-1900)

 

[hasbeen]

From today's SMH ...
"Europe was set to shiver through bitterly cold temperatures on Thursday, as Britain braced for more snow that has already caused chaos amid its most brutal winter in decades."

Global warming? Please explain.

It only gets warmer on average *ie. a lot warmer in most places, and colder in others) .. in fact if it warms up, the Gulf Stream may weaken and the UK and western europe get colder (see Little Ice Age 1300-1900)

Fair enough ... so what triggered the Little Ice Age in 1300 ?

 

[FFC Mariner]

Distant ancestors of Al Gore.

 

[midfielder]

Hasbeen

Did you here about the brick that floats in water ... or that fags don't cause cancer.... that you can eat as much as you like and never worry about your weight...

If you don't believe in climate change then I am sure you agree the expert's on my first statement with my first statement....

 

[hasbeen]

Hasbeen

Did you here about the brick that floats in water ... or that fags don't cause cancer.... that you can eat as much as you like and never worry about your weight...

If you don't believe in climate change then I am sure you agree the expert's on my first statement with my first statement....

After reading that last paragraph, now I really am confused ...

My question was ... "What triggered the Little Ice Age in 1300 ? "

 

[dibo]

Maybe you should ask a climate scientist? They'd know, and while you're there maybe they could explain to you in eye-glazing detail how the planet is actually warming, and point you to things like the mapping of carbon dioxide levels and other chemical make-up in ancient ice cores in Antarctica that show that CO2 levels have rocketed in the last 200 years in line with an increase in temperatures.

And they'd be able to tell you to ignore the ups and downs of temperatures, but instead focus on the trend - on average global temperatures may only rise by 3 degrees (which obviously doesn't rule in or out hot and cold spells here and there) but that this is enough for catastrophic changes to climates and ecosystems. And lastly, they'd probably point you to a graph showing that the *trend* for global temperatures is clearly up and up.

 

[Arabmariner]

Boffins baffling us with science to keep themselves in a job.

Who pays these people ???

 

[FFC Mariner]

Boffins baffling us with science to keep themselves in a job.

Who pays these people ???

You do.

(So do I. D'oh)

 

[RADINHO]

Carbon Tax, or as the government prefers the people to hear it as "Emissions Trading", is in my opinion all capitalist bullshit.

Before it was popular because it had the 3 factors to approve it:

1. Scientists endorse it as they receive further funding for research.
2. Investors and wealthy folk support it as it is a new opportunity for their own economic benefit.
3. Politicians support it as it brings more Tax to the Government for them to spend. Also this tax is not payed for by power companies, it is passed on to us, the hard working middle-class people of Australia!

SBS recently reported if an E.T.S was in place power bills would increase by another 62.5%!

I Believe in Global Warming, I Strongly Disagree With the Emissions Trading Scheme.

 

[dibo]

What do you support then?

 

[FFC Mariner]

An ETS is a typically lazy response to an issue. No creativity, just tax people and enrich others.

Mind you, when Wong and Garrett are considered suitable people to be involved with our environment you know it will be a complete f**k up.

Incentivise industry initially by way of tax credits on research grants/R $ D investment etc.

Creating a negotiable instrument that has all the investment banks salivating is just plain stupid.

Lets start with a bi-partisan debate rather than stubborn politicking - it seemed to work once before as we were able to have a bloodless revolution so lets use the Parliament for its proper purpose.

 

[dibo]

An ETS is a typically lazy response to an issue. No creativity, just tax people and enrich others.

Mind you, when Wong and Garrett are considered suitable people to be involved with our environment you know it will be a complete f**k up.

Incentivise industry initially by way of tax credits on research grants/R $ D investment etc.

Creating a negotiable instrument that has all the investment banks salivating is just plain stupid.

Lets start with a bi-partisan debate rather than stubborn politicking - it seemed to work once before as we were able to have a bloodless revolution so lets use the Parliament for its proper purpose.

we HAD a bloodless revolution. november 24 2007. bizarrely enough, BOTH major parties went to the election supporting an ETS. i don't particularly care who the ministers are, i don't particularly care who positions themselves to make a buck. frankly both are irrelevant to the debate. that person x is a minister and person y might make a buck has nothing to do with the intent of the policy.

the aim is to reduce carbon emissions is it not? in other words, we have to cap them - we're limiting supply. prices for high-carbon activities (burning coal, petrol, etc.) will rise - this is a natural consequence. prices for low-carbon activities (solar, tidal and wind energy) will drop.

the market will drive prices for high-pollution activities up and consequently 'clean' activity becomes at first relatively cheaper as the overall price level moves and then absolutely cheaper as investment brings scale and competition to the market.

negotiate the implementation, discuss the parameters, but the basic structure is unavoidable.

this is of course assuming we're ot going to advocate abbott's 'direct action' by which we will be required to analyse every activity in the economy and set a price on it according to some economic model that tells us how we might be able to create disincentives.

this will inevitably have to include some sort of 'carbon tax' where we attempt to directly set a price for carbon. as economist will tell you, you can control prices or you can control prices or you can control supply - you can't control both. a direct carbon tax gives no guarantee that you will reduce emissions. it does guarantee that you're going to have massice arms of federal bureaucracy having to monitor every aspect of the economy and adjusting the price in the hope of somehow manually achieving what would be more simply achieved through the market *or* you just set the price and hope for the best and ignore the possibility that you might either overcharge for emissions or miss your emission target because you undercharged.

in other words, short of abbott's 'command and control' vision of a new low-carbon economy, you're looking at an ETS of some sort.

[note - this is an area where i'm as close to a market fundamentalist as i'll ever be]

 

[FFC Mariner]

The mining/banking/rural lobby owns our politicians (of both sides) and will get minimum reductions/maximum gain and f**k the environment.

What someone (cleverer than I) needs to come up with is an ETI (Incentive).

 

[midfielder]

Did anyone see ... I was on holi's and saw in part only I thik on the ABC... the use by Adelaide University or sorry research by them into using Algae ... very intersting stuff looked at the ABC web site and could not track it down the show it was on or anything...

 

[FFC Mariner]

Taking a leaf out of Kevs current playbook

We have this little gem - I thought their problems started when they tried to explain it.

A history lesson will show that it is v hard to sell a complex new tax. Just ask Hewson. If Labor try to push this at the next election, they have just handed Abbott a massive stick to beat them with. Take away the merits or otherwise. Cant you just see the Libs ads funded by the miners v Labors ads funded by the bankers who will make billions out of trading something that doesnt exist.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/02/2834186.htm?section=justin

Government admits failing to sell ETS
Posted 31 minutes ago

Federal Agriculture Minister Tony Burke has admitted the Government did a terrible job of explaining changes to its emissions trading scheme (ETS).

In November last year the Government negotiated a series of amendments with then-Opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull and exempted agriculture from the scheme.

The Opposition subsequently withdrew its support after Tony Abbott was elected leader.

Mr Burke says the Government did not properly explain the benefits those changes would have for farmers.

"We did a terrible job at the end of last year of explaining the final package," he said.