MySchool

[dibo]

Has anyone checked out MySchool yet?

It's pretty interesting, not least for being able to see the basic demographic data of schools and how that correlates with performance. You can see that for example Gosford High does significantly better than local schools but that demographically it's quite different.

The question then arises - do they do well because of the school or because of the demographics? Also, how do you judge whether a school's doing well or poorly?

Newington College round the corner from me does pretty well, but it's also got three quarters of its pupils from the top SES group and barely any from the bottom and charges fees of more than $20k p/a.

GHS performs better but it takes its pick of students based on test results in year six so you'd kinda expect students there aren't too bad at standardised tests. Getting GHS students to do well on tests wouldn't exactly take miracles.

The various education unions are pretty peeved about the site, but I'm not sure it's such a bad idea. At the very least, the provision of more information could and should lead to more informed debates about funding.

You can calculate things like student/teacher ratios and whatnot and if you're so inclined use that in any measure of how well resourced a school is. The various education departments will also be well furnished with data on how much has been spent on capital works and whatnot.

Anyway, what do other people think about it?

 

[kevrenor]

Has anyone checked out MySchool yet?

Yes

My first thoughts are what % of the population will be able to understand it. Not exactly easy is it?

My kids have left school but I have three teachers in my family .. hmmm

 

[dibo]

I think it's good that the info is available, but recognise that schools will have to communicate carefully with their parents to explain the data. Ideally it would be the Federal Government doing that, but I think they're too busy having fights with the AEU and the various teachers' federations...

I'd like the teachers' unions to run a smart campaign along the lines of 'If you're annoyed that your school isn't performing well, ask the Federal Government why they persist in giving millions of dollars to elite private schools charging $20,000 and more per student per year'.

 

[mariners4ever]

i think it will be good in the long run, but as kev said, i doubt many people understand all the numbers, stats, etc

 

[marinermick]

Gosford High is a selective school so they cherry pick many of the most academically gifted in the community.

 

[curious]

I'm part of a two teacher immediate family. High school and primary.
The data given isn't in reality a measure of a schools performance, rather, the data gained through literacy and numeracy testing is but an aid to assist teachers in direction. A teaching resource. As a beep test is only to gain knowledge of where a teams fitness stands to assist in the teams performance, not as the principal indicator of it's overall performance.
The data is being used contrary to it's original intention.

To give an idea of misuse, understand how the testing is abused as a schools principal performance indicator. In high school, years 7 and 8 are tested in the 1st term. Keep in mind that Yr 7 results are published as the responsibility of their high school, regardless of the fact they have been in yr 7 only a very short period and their literacy and numeracy skills, good or bad, are obviously due to their former primary years. A magician cannot work wonders in a month or two of high school.

Demographics of year 9 at school A. will differ appreciably form those of year 9 in school B., over and above the similar economic backgrounds the student of two schools might have in common. Yr 9 in one might have a large proportion of special education students, behavioral students and special needs students. The other may not. The Dept of Ed. may not have approved funding for teachers aids and resources for school A. yr 9 special needs students. For certain, they will vary from school A. to B. and likely quite a deal. The data on 'My school' does not include or account for any variances such as those above or the myriad of others. Variances that do have a marked effect on the performance level of any class.

If the ability and performance of a Principle, teacher or school is to judged on the My school stats, it's akin to having your beep test with many concerned wearing weight vests with heavily differing loads and some without, calling it a fair an equal test, then judging it as the principal indicator of the teams performance before sacking or backslapping players according to the results. 

This is why the teachers disagree with the misuse of the testing results. Despite the government claims, when published as a school to school, student to student principle performance indicator comparison, they are as far removed from apples for apples as you could imagine and as unfair and unethical as the above mentioned beep test. 

 

[FFC Mariner]

Whilst seemingly 1 dimensional, anything that has the Teachers Unions frothing at the mouth is probably a good thing.

Key will be what does the Govt plan to actually do to address imbalances between schools?

 

[dibo]

This is why the teachers disagree with the misuse of the testing results. Despite the government claims, when published as a school to school, student to student principle performance indicator comparison, they are as far removed from apples for apples as you could imagine and as unfair and unethical as the above mentioned beep test.

All very fair. However making the information available and offering direct comparison with demographically similar schools while showing things like staffing levels and whatnot one can make some more meaningful (and deliverately qualified) inferences. They're attempting to provide the 'all other things being equal' thing. I'd love to see things like fees and whether or not the school is academically selective, plus how many of the students are first generation migrants and/or NESB too.

I think the information is valuable and should be publicly available. Making said information as useful and 'not misleading' as possible is also essential.

 

[curious]

Whilst seemingly 1 dimensional, anything that has the Teachers Unions frothing at the mouth is probably a good thing.

Key will be what does the Govt plan to actually do to address imbalances between schools?

The first point is correct. Single dimension and irrational to the point of cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The teachers union, like any union, is a collective of it's members, carrying out the wishes of the majority of those members. Despite what governments, (of any colour) and those expert lay persons with zero experience and knowledge of school teaching would have you believe, the vast majority of teachers, the union collective in fact, actually care about their students, gaining both personal and professional satisfaction in seeing success and improvement. At all levels. Albeit, success may be as little as teaching enough life skills to a behavioral difficulties student to enable the filing of a job application and gaining unskilled employment, or seeing that a child receives breakfast each morning at school after arriving with an empty stomach from the previous day.

The second point. When has a government did anything appreciable towards funding shortages or imbalances in education? In a nutshell, lip service only will be paid, as per normal practice. If public schools cant have leaking roofs repaired because the budget never allows, roofs that leak so bad in storms the power has to be turned off at the mains and are closed the following days to allow clean up, how do we expect to address the major funding issue of imbalances between schools? Once again, it won't happen. All the education funds are gone on 10 inch notebook computers. 

 

[curious]

This is why the teachers disagree with the misuse of the testing results. Despite the government claims, when published as a school to school, student to student principle performance indicator comparison, they are as far removed from apples for apples as you could imagine and as unfair and unethical as the above mentioned beep test.

All very fair. However making the information available and offering direct comparison with demographically similar schools while showing things like staffing levels and whatnot one can make some more meaningful (and deliverately qualified) inferences. They're attempting to provide the 'all other things being equal' thing. I'd love to see things like fees and whether or not the school is academically selective, plus how many of the students are first generation migrants and/or NESB too.

I think the information is valuable and should be publicly available. Making said information as useful and 'not misleading' as possible is also essential.

Though much of the info was previously known, having read much of the information on 'similar schools' as well as those in general backs up what has been common knowledge for decades. There is direct correlation between socioeconomic status of a schools students, the performance of those students and more often than not, the resources provided for the school.

Most of this information btw, has been available since Adam to any parent that cares enough to ask.
But you know what Dibo? The same parents will still be interested enough in their kids education to ask questions like they always have and the same parents will still not give a shite and like always, blame the teachers because lovely little Johnny got caught with pot or uppers at school because his parent/s are too busy getting pissed to notice. Same shite, different day.

 

[FFC Mariner]

All I can say is thank goodness my kids didnt go to Narara Valley High.

(you get what you pay for though)

There, isnt that exactly what they DONT want people to do with the site?

 

[EastEnder]

The second point. When has a government did anything appreciable towards funding shortages or imbalances in education? In a nutshell, lip service only will be paid, as per normal practice. If public schools cant have leaking roofs repaired because the budget never allows, roofs that leak so bad in storms the power has to be turned off at the mains and are closed the following days to allow clean up, how do we expect to address the major funding issue of imbalances between schools? Once again, it won't happen. All the education funds are gone on 10 inch notebook computers. 

What they should do is give the Principal the power to get rid of the dead wood and hire the best people for the job, just like in the real world.

 

[FFC Mariner]

How do you measure the dead wood?

Outcomes. Just like every single other employee.

Excuses are irrelevant, outcomes are all that matters.

Good old Maggie Gillard. Sooner she knifes Krudd the better

 

[curious]

Narara Valley High is around state average which is ok for a large state school.

You get more resources and a higher socioeconomic status enrollment percentage if you pay for it, not necessarily better teaching. Less 'challenging' teaching with less troublesome kids and the big stick of non government restricted discipline available, yes.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Average is ok?

Average gets you fired in the real world

 

[Arabmariner]

Average is ok?

Average gets you fired in the real world

Not at some football clubs ;-)

 

[EastEnder]

Narara Valley High is around state average which is ok for a large state school.

You get more resources and a higher socioeconomic status enrollment percentage if you pay for it, not necessarily better teaching. Less 'challenging' teaching with less troublesome kids and the big stick of non government restricted discipline available, yes.

But can't they also afford to attract the best? Or at least choose the best of the bunch through a competitive selection process?

 

[curious]

What they should do is give the Principal the power to get rid of the dead wood and hire the best people for the job, just like in the real world.

There is protocol in place to enable a principle to remove an employee that may be better suited in other areas. Peers don't take kindly to a fellow worker making their job more difficult through not pulling their weight.

Now, you tell me eastender, how do you tell who are the best people for the jpb?
Is it the teacher that has most of the regions best academically performing students in a well resourced selective school gaining excellent literacy/numeracy  results? Or is it the many teachers whom through perseverance, patience and people skills is able to get a special ed. or behaviorally challenged class through to complete year 10 and enough literacy to avoid a life on the dole?

You know eastender, the second lot of teachers would be in the lowest level on the Myschool scale. Many tens of thousands just like them around the country. For all intensive purposes looking to a layperson like a non performing teacher, or in your words, dead wood. I could name some of the worst performing schools in the state, situated in some of the poorest areas in the state, with some of the best and most caring teachers you could hope for. On the L & N tables they will be seen as failures.

Now again, tell me who are the best for the job, what are the guidelines you would use and how would you apply an apples for apples comparison of teaching ability?

 

[curious]

Average is ok?

Average gets you fired in the real world

Around the state average is fine for a large state school in an area attracting an average socioeconomic enrollment, with very average state government provided resources. As I said previously, the common ground for all the schools is the direct correlation between socioeconomic status of the schools enrollment and the performance of the students. Not because poorer means less bright, but it does mean much different circumstance.

 

[curious]

How do you measure the dead wood?

Outcomes. Just like every single other employee.

Excuses are irrelevant, outcomes are all that matters.

Good old Maggie Gillard. Sooner she knifes Krudd the better

Easy to state simplistic notions from a position of  ignorance, but what do you call excuses and how do you measure outcomes and what's your explanation of outcome? (keeping in mind a major achievement for many students is just getting through to yr 10 and obtaining employment) Is it an excuse to allow for variables including low economic status, special education needs students, behavior problem students, poor home life, low attendance ect ect ect?

Should we compare the outcomes of a selective or private school class with those of a school in a struggling region with an enrollment from the countries poorest communities? If a class is below the state average outcome, regardless of individual circumstance, would you consider the teacher a failure? So, again, if not apples for apples, how do you suggest outcomes be measured to be certain of a true and fair finding? Are you interested in a true and fair finding?