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Lessons from Canada - dire warnings for NSW Labor?

David Votoupal

Well-Known Member
OK, we all know that NSW Labor is a bunch of hopeless, corrupt, incompetent and arrogant nitwits who show utter contempt for the people of NSW. Even worse, the state Liberals are just as bad.

However, there are lessons to be learned from Canada on how incompetent and downright stupid governments have been punished by voters, and in some cases, the complete annihilation of a political party. I'm well read in the history and politics of Canada, and keep in mind too that Canada is a difficult country to govern due to its cultural and fiscal divisions, and that its first-past-the-post electoral systems tends to exacerbate matters. Also that federal and provincial parties, unlike Australia, are separate entities with separate memberships, etc. But anyway...

British Columbia presents a good case. The Social Credit Party, which had little in common with the Alberta party of the same name that once governed that province, ruled British Columbia for all but three years between 1952 and 1991. The premiers were W.A.C. Bennett (1952-72), his son Bill Bennett (1975-86) and Dutch-born Bill Vander Zalm (1986-91). Bill Bennett adopted some quite draconian economic measures during a recession and won an increased majority in 1983, but three years later he handed over the reins to Vander Zalm, who won the 1986 polls with an increased majority.

So what happened? Corruption, arrogance, you name it- it was quite an "achievement" but Vander Zalm's actions effectively destroyed the BC Socreds. He stepped down before the next polls in 1991, and the NDP won with most Social Credit supporters defecting to the revived Liberals.

The centre-left NDP proved little better. They served two terms in office, but once more scandals damaged the government and its unpopularity during the second term was highlighted by the quick turnover of premiers. So by 2001, the people of BC had enough, and voted in Gordon Campbell's Liberals with a massive majority- capturing all but two seats. Campbell has since been re-elected twice. So British Columbian voters are in no hurry to vote the NDP back in.

Alberta is Canada's wealthiest and most conservative province, its wealth derived from natural resources. The Social Credit Party there won power in 1935, with the western provinces badly affected by drought and the Depression, and governed until 1971. The Progressive Conservatives have been in power ever since. The Socreds planned radical economic and monetary reforms, and tried to take over the banking system in 1938- one of the few times the federal government vetoed provincial legislation, so the province created a government owned bank which still exists today as ATB Financial.

Saskatchewan presents another case. It's considered the home of "socialism" in Canada, the NDP government of the 60s introduced the world's first Medicare program. Yet it's also a socially conservative province and tends to vote Tory federally in recent years. In 1982, Grant Devine led the local PC party to a large election victory and held office for two terms. Devine's government was one of the most corrupt in recent Canadian history, although Devine himself was never implicated.

The scandal destroyed the provincial Tories, who lost the 1991 elections and were effectively replaced by the Saskatchewan Party on the right, who have governed since 2007. Devine himself tried to run for Federal Parliament as a Tory in 2004, but the Conservatives refused to let him run for them, although he would poll well as an independent.

Ontario, like BC and Alberta, has had a political dynasty with the Tories governing between 1943 and 1985. A hung Assembly in 1985 led to a minority Liberal government, and David Peterson led them to a large majority two years later. But in 1990, an early election led to a stunning upset- Bob Rae's NDP won power for the first and only time. The Rae government proved incompetent, and Mike Harris led the Tories back into power promising a "Common Sense Revolution"- code for Thatcherism.

Well... Ontarians had enough of that after two teams but Harris quit before they could lose in 2003. The Liberals have held power ever since.

Even more extraordinary was how Richard Hatfield, who had led New Brunswick since 1970, lost power after 17 years in office. In 1984, marijuana was found in the premier's luggage while accompanying the Queen on tour of Canada. Three years later, the provincial Tories were wiped out, losing every single seat having held a two-thirds majority prior. They wouldn't return to power for 12 years.

Federally, moreover, Brian Mulroney's unpopularity in his second term and an ethnically-based split led to the destruction of the Progressive Conservative party in the early 90s. The failure of the Meech Lake Accord and the recession at the time contributed, but the Tories' annihilation in 1993 was extraordinary, and led to 13 years of Liberal government capitalising on a divided electorate thanks to first past the post.

I know it's a rather long-winded post, but read through and you will find brutal lessons that NSW Labor will surely learn in 2011, if the people in NSW are sufficiently angry and "radicalised" to the point they demand real change. I think the above lessons suffices.

I'm sure, too, that when Hungary votes next year and the next time the UK goes to the polls, the same things will happen.
 

Yellowbeard

Well-Known Member
David Votoupal said:
OK, we all know that NSW Labor is a bunch of hopeless, corrupt, incompetent and arrogant nitwits who show utter contempt for the people of NSW.

:popcorn:    Awaits Dibo    :popcorn:
 

Capn Gus Bloodbeard

Well-Known Member
There actually needs to be another political party in existence for Labor to be voted out.

The fact that nobody can even organise a decent attempt at whinging (or in political terms, a decent opposition) tells me that as corrupt and incompetent as NSW Labor are, there's nobody better.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
DV - what's the point of the rant?

That Labor are going to lose the next NSW election? Congratulations on your insight. I'm sure this is a view that is surprising to everone.

That Labor are going to cease to exist after the next election? Not likely, as they remain in power federally (and frankly will do so until at least 2013 - the Federal Opposition are dreadful) and there are no parties that can take their spot. If anything the Nationals are the ones likely to cease to be.

You're comparing Canadian provincial politics - which is unusual in the fractured and parochial nature of its parties - to Australian politics with a steady two-party system and federalised structures.

The Labor Party is as popular as any party in government federally has ever been, and the Prime Minister even more so - they could cope with the very expected loss in NSW in 2011. It's not like it's a state-based rump of partisan provincials. You're comparing apples and washing machines.

Capn Gus Bloodbeard said:
There actually needs to be another political party in existence for Labor to be voted out.

The fact that nobody can even organise a decent attempt at whinging (or in political terms, a decent opposition) tells me that as corrupt and incompetent as NSW Labor are, there's nobody better.

Now don't say that, you'll make him cry tiny tory tears into his afternoon pimms.
 

FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
Krudd's gloss will fade when people begin to do the maths on the "OMG the Earth is going to boil" tax.

Those who are old enough remember the same dire warnings of a new ice age at school.

According to the ABC, internal Lib polling shows boat people and Carbon Tax is on the nose.

2 issues that Labor cant deal with as they are sucking the Greenie hippys dicks and are always soft on immigration.

Try to listen to Jones for more than 10 mins and he is creating the agenda
 

David Votoupal

Well-Known Member
Well duh, if any decent opposition exists they would promise to fix up our roads and rail and they would walk into government.

None of the minor parties will ever grow beyond a protest vote I fear. The Greens may have the loony left vote stitched up, the Democrats are dead as a force, while on the right the CDP is the personal vehicle of Fred Nile and Family First hasn't made a dent in NSW (unless Gordon Moyes joins them)... while the revived DLP in Victoria did well to gain an upper house seat in the last state polls there despite having far less resources and publicity.

The change in electoral system in NZ had the effect of raising third parties to prominence, but even so, the last election saw some of those parties lose out as they came flocking back to one of the major parties.

What do the above examples in Canada show? That if the electorate is sufficiently fed up, they will turn on a sitting government in spectacular fashion, to the point that a party will not recover for years, or (in BC and Saskatchewan) ever. Can you see that happening in NSW too? Will it be a similar situation to, say, Poland in 2005 or what'll happen in Hungary next year, i.e. a landslide defeat for a corrupt and inept sitting government?

Or is it more like the US or Japan examples where voters are merely "ripe for change"?
 

David Votoupal

Well-Known Member
dibo said:
DV - what's the point of the rant?

That Labor are going to lose the next NSW election? Congratulations on your insight. I'm sure this is a view that is surprising to everyone.

That Labor are going to cease to exist after the next election? Not likely, as they remain in power federally (and frankly will do so until at least 2013 - the Federal Opposition are dreadful) and there are no parties that can take their spot. If anything the Nationals are the ones likely to cease to be.

You're comparing Canadian provincial politics - which is unusual in the fractured and parochial nature of its parties - to Australian politics with a steady two-party system and federalised structures.

The Labor Party is as popular as any party in government federally has ever been, and the Prime Minister even more so - they could cope with the very expected loss in NSW in 2011. It's not like it's a state-based rump of partisan provincials. You're comparing apples and washing machines.

There are major differences, sure, but there are some very scary similarities to the current NSW Labor government and the waning days of the Social Credit and NDP governments in BC.

No major party is going to cease to exist, granted, but do you really think voters in NSW will forgive Labor for the next generation?
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
David Votoupal said:
What do the above examples in Canada show? That if the electorate is sufficiently fed up, they will turn on a sitting government in spectacular fashion, to the point that a party will not recover for years, or (in BC and Saskatchewan) ever. Can you see that happening in NSW too? Will it be a similar situation to, say, Poland in 2005 or what'll happen in Hungary next year, i.e. a landslide defeat for a corrupt and inept sitting government?

*That's* your big insight? Any trained monkey could tell you Labor's looking at at least two terms in opposition after this. It's a situation not much different to when Cain went, or Joh (minus the gross corruption - despite what the Daily Error might have you believe this Government are lightweights on the corruption scale when you compare with the Askins, Boltes and Bjelke-Pietersens of the world).

They're going to go into opposition and they're going to have to put a broom through Macquarie St and Sussex St before they get back.

If that's a surprise to anyone then they're *really* easily surprised.
 

David Votoupal

Well-Known Member
But can you argue it's a unique situation that we're a "First World" state left with "Third World" infrastructure. Look at WA- the highway system in Perth shames Sydney for sheer logic and intelligence of design, and they're even expanding the system. See the Kwinana Freeway/Forrest Highway extention by any chance? Oh, and the train system there shames CityRail too, but we've been through that before.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
David Votoupal said:
But can you argue it's a unique situation that we're a "First World" state left with "Third World" infrastructure. Look at WA- the highway system in Perth shames Sydney for sheer logic and intelligence of design, and they're even expanding the system. See the Kwinana Freeway/Forrest Highway extention by any chance? Oh, and the train system there shames CityRail too, but we've been through that before.

Just on this issue of infrastructure ... first I am a true swinging voter ... a pox on all their houses... But a thing that NSW & to a slightly extent Vic voters have, is we get by a long way the less per head of any of the states from Commonwealth Gov ...

This was OK when QLD & WA had small population ... but today both QLD & WA gov's get heaps from mining companies and yet per head they still get heaps more...

Further the rivers in NSW the size closeness a the great dividing range etc is far more than any other state.. EG the road to Queensland crosses heaps of rivers and through quite steep country at times, thus the cost to build roads etc is much higher than in other the states...

The broader question is when will NSW stop giving money to QLD & WA to build their infrastructure. Sorry make the equation more balanced.

Hope but will never happen .. but hope that NSW pollies and Vic as well could one day unite on this issue...
 

hasbeen

Well-Known Member
Surely a party devoid of ideas (NSW Liberal) is better than a party devoid of ideas, corrupt and arrogant (NSW Labor)  ... ? 
 

goingtoadisco

Well-Known Member
I will still vote labour next election, all liberal do is whinge about the many labor f**k ups, but have no ideas on how they would fix it or how they would have done it differently.
 

adz

Moderator
Staff member
goingtoadisco said:
I will still vote labour next election, all liberal do is whinge about the many labor f**k ups, but have no ideas on how they would fix it or how they would have done it differently.

An idea that I've heard is that every election instead of putting numbers in boxes you should have to write the name of the party you want to vote for, AND spell it correctly. Incorrect spelling doesn't count as a vote ;)
 

David Votoupal

Well-Known Member
In continental Europe there's far more defined parties ideologically, giving voters a wide choice.

As far as Canada goes...

Separatism has done a great deal of damage to Quebec since the 1970s. Montreal was once the financial hub of Canada, but the Parti Quebecois success of 1976 led to a flight of affluent Anglos from the province. So an independent Quebec would be an economic basket case without the equalisation payments it receives from the federal government. On top of that, I've also heard that the Francophone Quebecois are now leaving for "Anglo" provinces in search of work. Fact is, Quebec has laws that by most standards would be considered racist, and violating the constitution, but seem to get away with it.

Newfoundland is, well, interesting. It's only been part of Canada for 60 years. It was once a Dominion in its own right, with Australia, New Zealand and Canada, until the Depression bankrupted it in the 30s. They were then under direct British rule until 1949, after the voted to join Canada. It suffered from emigration and the decline of the fishing industry, but they're a very parochial lot who see themselves apart from the rest of the country- they'll tell you they're as different from the rest of Canada as New Zealanders are from Australians.

Well, more recently, offshore oil seems to be bringing brighter prospects to the province, and also the rise of Danny Williams to power in 2003. Williams once ordered public buildings to take down the national flag in protest over offshore oil revenues, and enjoys sky-high approval ratings most politicians can only dream of. That's it in a nutshell.
 

tuftman

Well-Known Member
Are you just showing off that you know something about Canadian politics and economics here? Because I'm yet to learn anything here relating to the Australian/NSW political landscape
 

Part_Timer

Well-Known Member
roger-couillard-canadian-pacific-train.jpg



This thread is going places...........
 

FFC Mariner

Well-Known Member
f**k the Canadians, too French.

Celine Dion is all their fault you know

Bastards

mind you, it could be worse

633754860149025425-canadians.jpg
 

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